Past Lives?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
notself
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by notself »

pink_trike,

Good points.
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Sure; on the other hand, it is not out of the realm of possibilities that the mind stream may also, in some cases, deliver what very well may be actual "memories" of a past life.
Perhaps. But we have no way of knowing. Why build stories about them? . . .
Why dismiss them out of hand?

Stuff like this that pops up during meditation can be very interesting, but it is just stuff of which to let go.
I've never heard a single past life memory that took place in these places. Mail clerk in Ludlow, Texas - 1963? nope. Garbage collector - Bemidji, Minnesota - 1957? nope. Waiter in San Francisco, 1976? nope. I've never heard anyone speak of these dull kinds of lives - even here in California where the discussion of past lives is as common as discussion of the weather.
I have.

But it all depends upon how the memories are elicted.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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IanAnd
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by IanAnd »

Collective wrote:All I can think of, is that I am not entirely comfortable about my coming death (whenever that may be), but I'm pretty much resigned to it. Helpless to change its course. Tossed about with no purchase to allow escape.
As are we all. Your realization of mortality is no different than the Buddha's, which is what makes it such a universal experience. Birth, existence and physical life for a duration, then impending aging, sickness, and finally death. To be followed by another round of the same cycle.

What separates the Buddha from other contemporaries of his time who realized this is his response to this reality. He formulated the Four Noble Truths and the development of dispassion for clinging to the five aggregates of clinging (e.g. to forms of existence) as an answer for total unbinding.

You may wish to read Thanissaro Bhikkhu's e-book The Paradox of Becoming for a more in-depth discussion of this, especially in the latter two chapters. In it, among other things, he pointed out:
“Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things
as they have come to be. And what does he discern as it has come to be?
“‘This is stress,’ he discerns as it has come to be. ‘This is the origination
of stress … This is the cessation of stress … This is the path of practice
leading to the cessation of stress,’ he discerns as it has come to be.” — SN 56:1

Stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation are the four
noble truths. Thus concentration is what makes the knowledge of Awakening
possible. To see these things as they have come to be means two things: viewing
events under the framework of the four truths as a whole, and focusing on the
content of each truth within that framework.

As a whole, the four noble truths constitute a way of viewing experience that
avoids dealing in the essential terms of becoming: self and the world. Instead, it
focuses simply on the issue of cause and effect, and the way the connections
between cause and effect can be manipulated unskillfully, leading to suffering, or
skillfully, to its end. The imperatives that grow from this framework are different
from those growing from the sense of self and the world. Instead of being
enjoined to use the world to satisfy the craving around which the sense of self is
built, one is enjoined simply to comprehend stress, abandon its cause, realize its
cessation, and develop the path to its cessation.

. . .

“Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things
as they have come to be. And what does he discern as it has come to be?
The origination and disappearance of form. The origination and
disappearance of feeling … perception … fabrications. The origination and
disappearance of consciousness.

“And what is the origination of form … feeling … perception …
fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?

“There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, and remains fastened.
And what does one enjoy and welcome, to what does one remain fastened?
One enjoys, welcomes, and remains fastened to form. As one enjoys,
welcomes, and remains fastened to form, there arises delight. Any delight in
form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes
becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth
as a requisite condition, then aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
distress, and despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire
mass of stress and suffering.


(Similarly with feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness.)

“And what is the disappearance of form … feeling … perception …
fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness?

“There is the case where one doesn’t enjoy, welcome, or remain
fastened. And what does one not enjoy or welcome, to what does one not
remain fastened? One doesn’t enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form.
As one doesn’t enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to form, any delight in
form ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging.
From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming.
From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation
of birth, then aging and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair
all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering.


(Similarly with feeling, perception, fabrications, and consciousness.) —SN 22:5
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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pink_trike
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:Why dismiss them out of hand?

I haven't seen anyone do that here.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
Why dismiss them out of hand?
I haven't seen anyone do that here.
Maybe not; however, I have seen some fair amount of effort put forth to explain away experiernces as being other than what they seem.

They, indeed, may often be other than they seem, but in all cases?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
Why dismiss them out of hand?
I haven't seen anyone do that here.
Maybe not; however, I have seen some fair amount of effort put forth to explain away experiernces as being other than what they seem.

They, indeed, may often be other than they seem, but in all cases?
I don't see anyone "explaining away" or suggesting "in all cases". If you're referring to me...I'm not quantifying or erasing. I'm saying that "what they seem" ("past life") is a very narrow knee-jerk response in our culture, and I'm suggesting that we should look past easy routine pat explanations, no matter what belief system is giving us that explanation because there are more possible explanations for these appearances than we can count or are even aware of.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: I don't see anyone "explaining away" or suggesting "in all cases". If you're referring to me...I'm not quantifying or erasing.
If you say so.
I'm saying that "what they seem" ("past life") is a very narrow knee-jerk response in our culture, and I'm suggesting that we should look past easy routine pat explanations, no matter what belief system is giving us that explanation because there are more possible explanations for these appearances than we can count or are even aware of.
. . .'"what they seem" ("past life") is a very narrow knee-jerk response in our culture' . . .
Maybe, but that does not mean that all the metempsychosis experiences reported can be accounted for by other explanations.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: I don't see anyone "explaining away" or suggesting "in all cases". If you're referring to me...I'm not quantifying or erasing.
If you say so.
I'm saying that "what they seem" ("past life") is a very narrow knee-jerk response in our culture, and I'm suggesting that we should look past easy routine pat explanations, no matter what belief system is giving us that explanation because there are more possible explanations for these appearances than we can count or are even aware of.
. . .'"what they seem" ("past life") is a very narrow knee-jerk response in our culture' . . .
Maybe, but that does not mean that all the metempsychosis experiences reported can be accounted for by other explanations.
You're the only one here saying "all". :tongue:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: You're the only one here saying "all".
Then you agree that all such experiences cannot be explained away as being other things.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: You're the only one here saying "all".
Then you agree that all such experiences cannot be explained away as being other things.
I don't presume to know...do you? I know that you like to play this game, but I'm not interested, thanks. :smile:
Last edited by pink_trike on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Vardali
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by Vardali »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: You're the only one here saying "all".
Then you agree that all such experiences cannot be explained away as being other things.
How can anyone make any claim to that effect without KNOWING them all? :shrug:
They may or may not, I for one wouldn't claim to be able to pinpoint even a single one to a definite cause ...
I have read PT's statements to suggest that there might be other reasonable explanations to account for such "images" other than past lives, not that it is not feasible for them to be related to past lifes.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: You're the only one here saying "all".
Then you agree that all such experiences cannot be explained away as being other things.
I don't presume to know...do you?

So, we cannot say all experiences claiming to be metempsychosis can be explained away in other terms because we likely cannot know of all such experiences.

On the other hand one could, I suppose, state that all such experiences of which one knows can be explained away in other terms, which, of course, leaves open the possibility that there are experiences not yet known to one that cannot be explained away in other terms.

My own experience over the last 40 some years is that a lot of the experiences can be explained away in any number of ways, but there are those that seem to be what they seem to be and other explanations do not quite work out so well.
This game stops here.
Game?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by Aloka »

It leads me to wonder what kind of "past lives" people "remembered" before television, history books, historical novels, romance novels, films, and all media forms flooded our lives, and before they were taken for granted? I wonder if a poor Mexican farmer living in abject poverty in a rural Mexican town back in 1751 had memories of being a pretty greek slave girl in a sunlight marble room, having never heard of Greece or marble. Our minds are stuffed with information dust bunnies...every scrap of media we've been exposed to during our entire life is lurking in the depths of mind waiting to be thrown back up in a wave of mental vomit. This inundation of imagery and stories that dominates life needs to be included when making considerations about what these types of appearances might actually represent, if they represent anything at all
(Pink_Trike)

.

Indeed. In hypnotherapy this is known as cryptomnesia or "buried memory" and relates to events seen in real life,on TV, in films, read about in novels, the media etc - which maybe didn't even register fully in our conscious mind but are stored nevertheless.

Personally I don't see any value in speculating about past or future lives - right at this moment, the present one is the only one that exists for me.


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by tiltbillings »

Vardali wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: You're the only one here saying "all".
Then you agree that all such experiences cannot be explained away as being other things.
How can anyone make any claim to that effect without KNOWING them all? :shrug:
They may or may not, I for one wouldn't claim to be able to pinpoint even a single one to a definite cause ...
I have read PT's statements to suggest that there might be other reasonable explanations to account for such "images" other than past lives, not that it is not feasible for them to be related to past lifes.
The best PT can claim is that some experiences may be explained away in other terms.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Annapurna
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Re: Past Lives?

Post by Annapurna »

pink_trike wrote:I agree with Ben. The mind is a funny thing...we can't pretend that we understand the "extraordinary " things that appear in the mind stream. I once ingested a substance that caused the mind to serve up the experience of flying my house above the town I lived in for about an hour, with Gumby and Pokey as my co-pilots. I experienced this in "real time" with complete "real time" detail...meaning as if the experience was 100% real just like your experience of reading this wherever you are - smells, sounds, expansive space, etc...Gumby and I had a very intelligent conversation about the intricacies of "reality"...he did most of the talking. This experience was as "real" as any experience I've had in what we consider "reality", but I don't claim that I was once reborn as a house pilot in Gumby and Pokey Land.
:lol:

And how could you? Knowing you had a substance in you which caused you to hallucinate?
Neither do I claim that I once lived in medieval Ireland, though in a trance state I once wandered around in a forest outside of Belfast after a gruesome battle, corpses everywhere. This mind has traveled to the most incredible places...just last night "I" was in Paris having a blast.
:lol: You're so funny.
THe mind knows no boundaries underneath those that have been conditioned. We can entertain ourselves for hours with speculation about past lives. More interesting to me is looking closely at the mind process that arrives at the conclusion that we somehow know what these experiences are
True,if we weren't Buddhists, we wouldn't be able to put them in a category such as "ppls" (possible past lives recollections). We would be thinking we spaced out and were having daydreams or were making our own movies, preparing for "oscar".
and also how these experiences could possibly be at all relevant to now - other than showing us that the mind can generate any ol' anything for us to coo, giggle, and clap at like children visiting the monkey house.
If diseases and phobias get better, I'm all for it. If it helps to deepen confidence in the dhamma, why not?

Anna :anjali:
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