Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kester,

Thank you for the insightful overview and welcome to Dhamma Wheel!

:buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS »

HI Kester,

Thank you for your insights and knowledge you bring to this discussion.

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by tiltbillings »

Kester wrote:Hi

I used to be a monk in the Thai forest tradition six years, ...metta
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Thanks for the post. I was wondering where you were. I always enjoyed your postings on Websangha, and I hope you will stop post here as you schedule allows.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

Hidden away in a comment on Sujato Bhikkhu's blog is a long reply to Ajahn chandako Posted on behalf of the Ajahn Brahmali & the Bodhinyana Sangha.

It is easy to miss so here is the link:

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/ ... /#comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

gavesako wrote:
BlackBird wrote:I think Ayya Khema and her Nun's we're pretty strict on the Vinaya code?
I think both Bhante G and Ayya Khema did so. The latter actually said (I am told) that the Vinaya is not really necessary and that one only needs to keep the basic ethical precepts, so she was eating in the afternoon, etc. This raises some doubts naturally about the need to obtain the status of "bhikkhuni" in the first place.

Oh really... Oh :|
Hmm...

Thank you for your response Bhante.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Sanghamitta »

I think that this is all very sad...metta to all concerned.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Thanavuddho »

-
Last edited by Thanavuddho on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Guy »

Hi All,

I just went to tonight's talk by Ajahn Brahm and he basically said that the expulsion is "no big deal" and that it will be "business as usual" here in Perth. He also mentioned that he is still good friends with all the monks involved and says that they are all good monks despite the disagreements.

Ajahn Bramali has written the following on the BSWA website:-
...

To summarize, the ordination of bhikkhunis at Bodhinyana Monastery happened as it did because it seemed clear that any consultation with the Wat Pah Pong Sangha would have led to it being blocked. It is indeed regrettable that the ordination had to happen in this way, but sometimes, as in the present case, there is no good alternative. However, I do not believe that any irreparable rift in the Sangha has been created. There is a storm right now, but like all storms it will pass. I firmly believe that in the long run this decision to ordain bhikkhunis will be regarded as appropriate given the difficult circumstances. Now we all need to act for conciliation and understanding, to look to the future good of Buddhism and let go of any remaining bad feelings.
http://www.bswa.org/modules/news/articl ... toryid=769

With Metta,

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

I wonder if the ordination was done properly according to the vinaya procedures (pali).

eg.
Was the Bhikkhuni preceptor a Bhikkhuni with 12 years standing?
Did the 4 applicants each have 2 years as a sikkhamana or probabtionary trainee?

The reintroduction of Bhikkhuni into Theravada has happened recently - hopefully it was more than 12 years ago!

I know all the women were 'nuns' for long periods prior, but I don't know if there is any special requirement to be a sikkhamana.

Hope they complied completely.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS »

Bankei wrote: Was the Bhikkhuni preceptor a Bhikkhuni with 12 years standing?
Yes, Ayya Tathaaloka has 12 years standing. She ordained in Los Angeles in 1997. See her bio:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... Tathaaloka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Bankei wrote: Was the Bhikkhuni preceptor a Bhikkhuni with 12 years standing?
Yes, Ayya Tathaaloka has 12 years standing. She ordained in Los Angeles in 1997. See her bio:

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... Tathaaloka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks David. Excellent news.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Raga Mala »

After spending the last several hours reading about this controversy (which until yesterday I did not even know was raging so heavily), I can only state that I agree with the action taken by Ven. Brahmavamso and co.

Ajahn Sujato's blog is the best resource, because in it he references all the applicable documents on both sides. I think Ven. Sujato and Ven. Brahmali make the case for the Bodhinyana folks as best as can be made. The most important point and that to which we must continually return is that the bhikkhuni ordination is UNARGUABLY a valid Vinaya practice under the rules of the Vinaya Pitaka. And the general rule of holding the Vinaya as the highest authority seems to have been somewhat downplayed by WPP and Thai folks, not to mention english sangha folks. I won't restate what's clearly said and much better articulated by Sujato and Brahmali.

I believe they are correct in identifying this is the "principal sangha issue of our time." Sujato frequently states that Buddhism's very relevance to modern spirituality is at stake.

I could not agree more.

Metta and good wishes for all involved.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS »

Ven. Dhammika of Buddha Dhamma Mandala Society, Singapore (he is originally from Australia) has chimed in on this subject with a response:

http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; November 7, 2009 entry

Here are some of the good parts:
"Most better-informed and intelligent Western Buddhists have described this act as ‘courageous’, ‘an historic step’ and ‘laudable’ and I agree completely. However I see the courageousness, the historical significant and the laudability of this ordination somewhat differently. It affirms the Buddhist ideal of gender equality and that is important. It allows women to share with men the benefits (and challenges) of the monastic life, which is only right."

". . . . it is inappropriate in the 21st century to require them to always take second place to a male and that it is degrading to treat them as if they had some sort of contagious disease."
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Raga Mala wrote:The most important point and that to which we must continually return is that the bhikkhuni ordination is UNARGUABLY a valid Vinaya practice under the rules of the Vinaya Pitaka.
If so, why is there any dispute about it? Shouting doesn't make something true. It merely indicates that you are strongly attached to your opinion, which is almost certain to lead to arguments. It is better to follow Ajahn Chah's advice — it is not sure.

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

Hi Bhikkhu

The procedures for Bhikkhuni ordination are laid down in the vinaya. I don't think you can dispute the validity of this unless you wish to dispute the validity of the Bhikkhu procedures too. Bhikkhu Brahm followed these proceedures to the letter.

The Thai heirarchy is upset because he did not inform them or obtain their permission. There is no requirement for this in the vinaya.

Some monks do dispute the validity of the ordination lineage of the ordinaing Bhikkhini. Similarly some Dhammayut monks dispute the validity of the Mahanikaya lineage. In Sri Lanka there is also much dispute about lineage validity. I am sure there is in Burma too with their 9 nikaya.

Bankei
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