The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Alex123 »

One overcomes rūpasaññānaṃ, paṭighasaññānaṃ and nānattasaññānaṃ going from 4th Jhāna to base of infinite space (ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ).

Exactly what is:
a) rūpasaññānaṃ . The wording suggest that it is rūpa not purely mental objects (dhāmmasaññā) that one overcomes.

b) paṭighasaññānaṃ. Can purely mental objects impinge like physical ones?

c) nānattasaññānaṃ. Diversity of what kind of rūpa can be found in 4th Jhāna and below?

It seems to suggest that 5 senses perceptions are finished between 4th Jhāna and ākāsānañcāyatana.
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Kumara
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Kumara »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Kumara wrote:Ya, I know about this one. In Anupada Sutta (MN111), we can see many more "factors". These seems to be the beginnings of the abhidhammika way of thought.
I don't know about that, but the 5 factors seem to occur repeatedly in sutta descriptions of jhana, with the factors progressively "dropping off" as one goes from 1st to 4th jhana.
Tell me the five factors in the most standard description of 1st jhana.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

A helpful analysis fromBhikkhu Cintita Dinsmore:
Buddha’s Meditation and its Variants

The daunting plethora of modern Buddhist meditation techniques has proved itself a source of bewilderment, doubt and contention. As a result meditators bandy about many terms, like “mindfulness,” “insight,” and “jhana” with little agreement on what these mean, and with much uncertainty about the relative merits of alternative techniques or doubts about the viability of their own chosen practices. In spite of this, the Buddha actually gave some us some very clear instructions about meditation, available to us today in the Pali Suttas and in the Chinese Agamas. This series of posts considers, first, the Buddha’s meditation and its unique characteristics, and, second, its later variants and how these came to differ from their origins.
https://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/ho ... -variants/

:anjali:
Mike
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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:A helpful analysis fromBhikkhu Cintita Dinsmore:
Buddha’s Meditation and its Variants

The daunting plethora of modern Buddhist meditation techniques has proved itself a source of bewilderment, doubt and contention. As a result meditators bandy about many terms, like “mindfulness,” “insight,” and “jhana” with little agreement on what these mean, and with much uncertainty about the relative merits of alternative techniques or doubts about the viability of their own chosen practices. In spite of this, the Buddha actually gave some us some very clear instructions about meditation, available to us today in the Pali Suttas and in the Chinese Agamas. This series of posts considers, first, the Buddha’s meditation and its unique characteristics, and, second, its later variants and how these came to differ from their origins.
https://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/ho ... -variants/

:anjali:
Mike

I think that the problem is with putting too much emphasis on "technique" rather on the reason why one is doing what one is doing.
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Pondera
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Pondera »

There are those who say jhana is so absorbing that sound and awareness cease, among other things, to exist. Yet, in suttas the Buddha repeatedly references the "saturation" and "permeation" of Jhana throughout the body. How does one accomplish this if one is in a state of non-conscious absorption? This is my argument for jhana as a "subtle material body" absorption vs. a purely "mind made" absorption.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Polar Bear
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Polar Bear »

I just want to point people to two lectures by Venerable Anālayo where he gives a very thorough investigation of the various controversies around jhana and he approaches from a very agreeable and open-minded perspective.

In the first 30 minutes or so of this lecture he talks about the meaning of vittaka and vicara, whether one can hear sound in jhana, whether jhana is specifically buddhist or not, how familiar the buddha was with jhana on the night of his awakening, and I think that about covers it.

In this lecture from about 2 minutes in Analayo gives some references to suttas from the last lecture (posted above) on jhana and then he goes into the relation between jhana experience and the body. The first 12 minutes of this lecture are the key points but I would also recommend going into at least the first 23 minutes.

These are the least biased and most backed up discussions I've ever heard on the the matter and highly recommend anyone with an inkling of interest in samadhi to listen to them.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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samseva
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by samseva »

polarbear101 wrote:I just want to point people to two lectures by Venerable Anālayo where he gives a very thorough investigation of the various controversies around jhana and he approaches from a very agreeable and open-minded perspective.

In the first 30 minutes or so of this lecture he talks about the meaning of vittaka and vicara, whether one can hear sound in jhana, whether jhana is specifically buddhist or not, how familiar the buddha was with jhana on the night of his awakening, and I think that about covers it.

In this lecture from about 2 minutes in Analayo gives some references to suttas from the last lecture (posted above) on jhana and then he goes into the relation between jhana experience and the body. The first 12 minutes of this lecture are the key points but I would also recommend going into at least the first 23 minutes.

These are the least biased and most backed up discussions I've ever heard on the the matter and highly recommend anyone with an inkling of interest in samadhi to listen to them.

:anjali:
Thank you, polarbear.

By the way, for anyone interested, you can both download the video and the PDF files from the website itself ('Download' tab below the video).
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

polarbear101 wrote:I just want to point people to two lectures by Venerable Anālayo where he gives a very thorough investigation of the various controversies around jhana and he approaches from a very agreeable and open-minded perspective. ...
Thanks. Nice talks. I really appreciate commentators with an open-minded non-argumentative approach.

:anjali:
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by SarathW »

I have a streaming problem.
So it is not easy to follow the talk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Click on Dowload, below the picture, then click on video or audio to start a download.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by SarathW »

Thanks :thumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Zom
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Zom »

Agree with him on the 1st topic (vitakka), but don't agree on the 2nd (sound in jhana). He takes the passages but shows only one side of them, while there is another side, if we are to take some more passages refering to this topic. For example, he says that sound is a thorn to 1st jhana (according to a sutta) and vitakka-vicara are thorns to 2nd one. Then he explains: in the 2nd jhana there are no vitakka-vicaras, so this means in the 1st jhana there are no sounds (they can't happen in it). Sounds solid, but actually there is at least one another passage that shows that both vitakka-vicara can actully happen to a meditator of the 2nd jhana and when they happen he sees them as an affliction. In the same way sound actually can be heard in the 1st jhana, while the meditator will see (hear) it as an affliction. Same with the second vinaya passage about Moggallana, where the subject is not the 1st jhana & sounds, but, obviously, arupa-lokas & jhana, and according to MN 43 it is there where the mind is totally separated from the 5 senses, including hearing. But again Ven. Analayo doesn't mention that.

As for the 2nd lecture about "kaya" - again fully agree with him that this term is (in several cases) ideomatic and should not be understood directly as "body" -esp. in the 3rd jhana formula. But again don't agree that in jhana "everything becomes one", because "oneness" again is the unique feature of arupa-attainments, not jhanas.
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Kabouterke »

Textual analysis of the suttas is certainly of prime importance in trying to discern if the jhanas taught during the Buddha's teaching career were the "vipassana / sutta" or "Visuddhimagga-style" jhanas (or possibly a continuum of the two types). But coming from a background in research, I'm surprised that no one has thought to test empirically what the differences are between the two types. Currently, there are already a number of studies that Leigh Brasington (and others) has participated in that offer us insight into what's going on in the brain during (sutta-style) jhanas. See: http://www.hindawi.com/journals/np/2013/653572/ for one example.

You could test to see if there is an actual difference between the two types of jhana by testing if they create significantly different brain activity, and if so, what those differences are. The benefit of the doing the sutta-style jhanas in this type of research is that you are able to maintain awareness of the body and can offer important information that the researchers need in order to keep track of which jhana you are entering and when. With the Visuddhimagga-style jhanas, this would be more difficult. It would also probably be harder to find Visuddhimagga-style jhana practitioners who could consistently enter and emerge from the jhanas, in addition to being in a noisy setting with the fMRI pounding away in the background. But with all research, where there is a will (and a large enough grant), there is a way.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the two styles are actually just one phenomenon on continuum of intensity (think Bhante Vimalaramsi v. Bhante Gunaratana v. Ajahn Brahm v. Pa Auk Sayadaw) and that most people will find themselves at various positions on that continuum, even when using the same technique. But for those who really must know, empirical research might be able to offer answers that deciphering 2,500+ year old words can't.
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Kumara
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Kumara »

mikenz66 wrote:
polarbear101 wrote:I just want to point people to two lectures by Venerable Anālayo where he gives a very thorough investigation of the various controversies around jhana and he approaches from a very agreeable and open-minded perspective. ...
Thanks. Nice talks. I really appreciate commentators with an open-minded non-argumentative approach.
Outward impression can be deceiving.
PeterHarvey
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by PeterHarvey »

I’ve just downloaded read through the ~300 pages of The Great Jhāna Debate postings. This needed some sustained mindfulness and calm:-), and included many interesting ideas and references.
It struck me that some emphasise texts and some emphasise practice, and a good Sutta to bear in mind when the discussion gets on the heated side is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... 6.than.htm- on the need for those devoted to Dhamma/teachings and those emphasising jhāna to appreciate each others’ qualities.
Regarding the differences of perspective over samatha and vipassanā practice, two useful passages are as follows.
A II 93-4: 1) one who has internal samatha of mind but not yet higher paññā of insight/vipassanā into phenomena needs to enquire about the nature of conditioned phenomena. 2) one who has higher paññā of insight/vipassanā into phenomena but not yet internal samatha of mind should ask how the mind is to be steadied, composed, unified and concentrated (cittaṃ saṇṭhapetabbaṃ … sannisāditabbaṃ … ekodikattabbaṃ … samādahātabbaṃ ) The underlined bits use words very much associated with jhāna.
A.II.156–8 emphasizes the different ways in which the Noble Path can be reached. One can go on to become an Arahat once the Path arises from one of:
i) vipassanā preceded by samatha;
ii) samatha preceded by vipassanā;
iii) samatha and vipassanā yoked together;
iv) the mind being ‘gripped by Dhamma excitement’ but then settling down and attaining concentration.
As samatha and vipassanā naturally became terms for the methods which respectively cultivated these qualities, the above four approaches came to be seen as different sequences in which such methods might be practised (Cousins, 1984: https://www.academia.edu/1417366/Samath ... -y%C4%81na). As understood in Theravāda Buddhism:
i) is the ‘vehicle’ (-yāna) of samatha, which develops deep calm, then adds insight;
ii) is the vehicle of vipassanā, which on the basis of preliminary calm, develops insight then deeper calm (full ‘samatha’); and
iii) is the ‘yoked’ method, which has alternating phases of progressively deeper levels of calm and insight.
iv) seems to have referred to insight leading to the arising of various pleasant experiences to which there is excited attachment – later called the ‘defilements of insight’(Vism. 633–8) –, then a return to composure and concentration (Patis.II.100–01). In time it came to be seen as the way of the ‘dry/bare (sukkha) insight worker (vipassaka)’ (Vism. 666, 702): insight without the explicit need for the cultivation of samatha.
Apologies if many of you are already familiar with these passages.

Peter
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