Nagarjuna

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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zavk
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by zavk »

Wow, it would be great if you could share some of your research here, Venerable--but maybe you'll have to simplify it for me.... :)

Needless to say, I have not studied Nagarjuna systematically but have read bits of Garfield's book and also Batchelor's poetic rendition of the MMK. I agree with Tilt's recommendation.

Without a rigorous study of the MMK (or the Sutta Pitaka for the matter), I cannot say with accuracy if Nagarjuna's ideas are 'in line' with Theravadin thought. But from what little I know, I have found his method of reasoning/analysis a useful 'supplement' to my overall understanding of the Dhamma.
With metta,
zavk
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mikenz66
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dan,
Dan74 wrote: What does it mean for your practice? Do you know why there may be a difference? How can we tell which side is right? Are both right? Neither?
I don't think it's a matter of "right" or "wrong", I think that it's a matter of not getting confused when there is divergence.

For example, within Theravada sources, the Vinaya and Suttas are generally quite internally consistent, but the Abhidhamma and Commentaries have various well-documented differences (such as how the jhanas are enumerated) and extensions (such as details of mind-moments, etc). It's useful to know that if you're reading them.

So, if one is trying to read Mahayana sources and one's usual frame of reference is Theravada sources, then it makes sense to ask: "What is the same/different?". Otherwise one might waste a lot of time trying to figure them out or trying to implement ideas or instructions that are inherently contradictory (unless you are claiming that all Mahayana ideas are consistent with the Theravada Canon, which I believe would contradict Paññāsikhara's post above). Which could be rather disastrous for practise.

Therefore I value the guidance of those who have already enumerated such things...

Metta
Mike
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Dan74
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

What you say makes perfect sense, mike.

And yet making sense is perhaps not enough for proceeding on this journey. Sometimes being confronted with seeming paradoxes, we open up to what we had been previously closed, confronted with something incomprehensible, we become humble. The mental chatter stops and we hear dhamma as if for the first time.

A methodical study can be very beneficial no argument there. Just throwing some ideas around.

Sorry for hijacking the thread...

:meditate:

_/|\_
_/|\_
Paññāsikhara
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Dan74 wrote:What you say makes perfect sense, mike.

And yet making sense is perhaps not enough for proceeding on this journey. Sometimes being confronted with seeming paradoxes, we open up to what we had been previously closed, confronted with something incomprehensible, we become humble. The mental chatter stops and we hear dhamma as if for the first time.

A methodical study can be very beneficial no argument there. Just throwing some ideas around.

Sorry for hijacking the thread...

:meditate:

_/|\_
Well, if applied correctly, Nagarjuna's "consequent" method (prasanga) can lead on to such a state, whereby one no longer follows the usual mental conceptualization which flows from views of existence / non-existence, and so forth.

This is why his opening verses in the MMK state:

I make obeisance to him, the fully awakened one, the best of teachers,
who teaches dependent origination, which is the auspicious appeasement of conceptual proliferation,
neither cessation nor arising, neither annihilism nor eternalism,
neither singularity nor plurality, neither coming nor going.


Anirodham anutpādam anucchedam aśāśvataṃ,
Anekārtham anānārtham anāgamam anirgamam
Yaḥ pratītyasamutpādam prapañcopaśamam śivaṃ,
Deśayāmāsa sambuddhas taṃ vande vadatāṃ varaṃ.

《中論》卷1〈1 觀因緣品〉:
 不生亦不滅  不常亦不斷
 不一亦不異  不來亦不出
 能說是因緣  善滅諸戲論
 我稽首禮佛  諸說中第一」
(CBETA, T30, no. 1564, p. 1, b14-17)

This shows the importance of dependent origination, and that it is the middle way between the various polar dualities.
Oh, Dan, this reminds me of some other conversations we have had about non-duality, too, huh?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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BlackBird
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by BlackBird »

Dan74 wrote: What does it mean for your practice? Do you know why there may be a difference? How can we tell which side is right? Are both right? Neither?

So what do you think you know? And how much of this knowledge is helpful for practice, how much is actually in the way?

Apologies for the rant... :focus:

_/|\_
I'm probably a little late to the party here.

Knowing others intentions is 'not for sure'

I have, over time raised similar questions that you raise now. Then I've gone back to the drawing board, had a sit, and got back up again. The intention has changed, but the questions remain the same. We're always seeing things through our own mind's judgements.

Recalling now, the way my mind inclined perhaps 5 or 6 months ago:

1.Well, I don't see how this applies to my practice
2. All this getting caught up in concepts and theories
3. It's not time on the mat
4. This isn't helpful
5. I don't see how this applies to their practice.
6. What a waste of time.
7. How annoying
8. This annoys me
9. Why does it have to be this way
10. Can't it be different
11. I'm going to say something
12. I'm going to tell them what's what.
13. Perhaps they'll wake up from this silly attachment...

Hyperbole for dramatic effect of course, but that was probably the mental undercurrent.
Who was really attached in those mind moments? Was it those people "rabbiting on" about inconsequential things, or was it me?

I'm not trying to say that's how you think Dan, I imagine there is an extreme divergence in detail. I mean simply that I have had similar thoughts myself.

When I ask questions such as the one put forth in the OP; It's not just for conversation, it's because I have a desire to learn, to learn the framework of the Dhamma. To learn the nuances of Buddhist thought, and to see how I can apply it to my own practice. Naturally because I follow the Theravadin framework, I want to know how Nagarjuna's writings could apply to it.

Metta

Jack

P.S.
:focus:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Dan74
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

Oh man (I mean Venerable), non-duality... that was some thread!

E.g. (paraphrase from memory):

Poster 1: So have you had this non-dual experience since you seem to know so much about it?
Poster 2: Are you stupid or what?

hmmm....

:focus: (to the hijacked topic)

Just came across this:
The Mirror of Zen by Master So Sahn wrote:Lacking faith in one's capacity for enlightenment [orig: "own nature"] is the sickness of those attached to scriptural authority, whereas pride is the disease of those who practice only meditation. People who are attached to sutras and scriptural teaching of words can lack faith in the living, mysterious experience of meditation that leads to a sudden insight. They are usually too caught up in the expedient means of words and speech, attached to the stubborn habit of distinguishing between "true" and "not true". Believing only what is written in holy texts they are conceptually mesmerized by the treasures of others, instead of digging inside to discover the priceless gems of their own, lying deep within. As a result, such people retrogress spiritually of their own accord.

Meditation students, on the other hand, often lack proper faith in the sutras, and so disregard the scriptural teachings on gradual cultivation and harmful mind-habits. They are not ashamed even when these defilements and karmic habits arise in their mind. Foolishly proud of their so-called "dharma" long before their practice can be said to have truly matured, their speech can be seen as pure arrogance.

Therefore those who practice correctly must not lack confidence in their capacity for enlightenment, not should they give in to pride.
Hmmm.....

_/|\_

PS Hi Blackbird :hello:
I didn't mean that post as an attack on you, or your OP. It was just some attempt to explore the usefulness or otherwise of such an approach. When you say you follow Theravada and want to pick up useful things it sounds perfectly reasonable. And yet the few truly inspiring practitioner whom I've met took their wisdom where they found it without bothering about the labels and distinctions. This path is about liberation, isn't it? Not really about sects and concepts (though they are not entirely without use!). Anyway, see the quote above, maybe it'll make more sense... I type a lot of words and they just sit on the screen lazily and do nothing for noone...
Last edited by Dan74 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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BlackBird
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by BlackBird »

Thank you all for your responses
:reading:
:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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BlackBird
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by BlackBird »

Hi Dan.

You raise some good points, no doubt.

The analogy I like to use with regards to Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana is that they are like Easter eggs.
You might have one Easter egg with orange tin foil, another with green tin foil, and perhaps yet another with purple tin foil.

The wrapping might be different, but when we compare the actual practice, it's remarkably similar.

It just so happens that I am eyeing up the Easter egg with orange tin foil, and sometimes I like to see how the green tin foil correlates with the orange.

:group:

Sorry anyway.

Goodness forbid someone has an opinion of things that conflicts with my own view. Or should that be my self view :stirthepot:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Sanghamitta
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Sanghamitta »

It seems to me that the mahayana is more like a Russian doll...joke... :smile:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Aloka
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Aloka »

If anyone is interested in reading a Tibetan Buddhist commentary on the key verses of each chapter of Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika I suggest "The Sun of Wisdom" by Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso.

Kind regards,

Aloka
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Dan74
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

Sanghamitta wrote:It seems to me that the mahayana is more like a Russian doll...joke... :smile:

...with the smallest doll missing! When you peel all the layers off, it's just emptiness!

:lol:

_/|\_
_/|\_
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Aloka
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Aloka »

Dan74 wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:It seems to me that the mahayana is more like a Russian doll...joke... :smile:

...with the smallest doll missing! When you peel all the layers off, it's just emptiness!

:lol:

_/|\_

Emptiness here, emptiness there, is emptiness sickness reaching everywhere?? :rolleye:


_/\_
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Dan74
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

Emptiness sickness? :broke:

Just some harmless fun, Friend!

_/|\_

PS (That's more than) Enough chatter from me, though!
_/|\_
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Aloka
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Aloka »

Dan74 wrote:Emptiness sickness? :broke:

Just some harmless fun, Friend!

_/|\_

PS (That's more than) Enough chatter from me, though!

Hi Dan,

Don't take me seriously, having heard people mention "emptiness sickness" on another forum in the past, I was just making a joke! No offense intended ! :D

_/\_ Aloka

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Sanghamitta
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Re: Nagarjuna

Post by Sanghamitta »

Where would we be without the endless vigilance of the Buddhist Ecumenicists.. :D
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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