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What is right view? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:55 am

Hi everyone,

The theme of this thread is the simple idea that the term "right view" is used for more than one thing. I would like to identify these things. Also, I would like to identify the path factor "right view" for the noble eightfold path.
I agree with Collins that the term "right view" is used for several different things.

1. Acceptance of a belief in kamma/rebirth. We know this from MN 117 and other suttas. This seems to be right view for puthujjanas, and yet, it may still apply to those on the noble eightfold path.

2. Mere acquaintance with certain key doctrines. This means that a conceptual understanding of say, the four noble truths, is right view.

3. Liberating insight. Insight into the four noble truths, or insight into dependent origination. What does insight see, and how does it liberate ?

It seems that bhikkhu Bodhi has a similar view, he calls number 2 "conceptual understanding", and number 3 "experiential understanding".

Best wishes, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: What is right view?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:06 am

Greetings Vincent,

Have you considered that Right View may be a momentary thing... just like Right Mindfulness, Right Effort, Right Concentration, Right Speech and so on? And that like those things it might not be a simple, straight, binary, Yes or No?

(Hence the context of the sutta I provided)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pt1
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Re: What is right view?

Postby pt1 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:41 am


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:55 am

Hi retrofuturist,

Momentary right view, and the other path factors ? This idea makes no sense for me. Nor do I find it in the five nikayas. There is sudden enlightenment of course, the immediate destruction of the asavas as described in the Parileyya sutta. I consider the eight noble persons and the four stages to be a false teaching intended for puthujjanas. The doctrine of momentary paths and fruits is ( I believe ) part of the abhidhamma teachings, and is not found in the nikayas.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: What is right view?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:09 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:26 am

Hi retrofuturist,

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about ! Do things not persist in the mind ? Is suffering only momentary ? Why would the Buddha say that wrong views should be eliminated ? If they are only momentary they will be gone in the next moment.
This is not what the Buddha taught. Or do I just mis-understand you.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: What is right view?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:37 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:55 am

Hi retrofuturist,

I have chosen to study only the five nikayas. So I do not have any interest in the abhidhamma or the commentaries. Anyway I am too old now to start a major new undertaking such as those. It seems that no one here actually understands what right view is. But that is to be expected I suppose, since to attain right view would make one a noble disciple or stream-winner.
I still do not see what you mean.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:58 am

Greetings Vincent,

I don't study them either, but the point they make is spot on.

"Right view (sammaditthi) is the cetasika of wisdom exercised in understanding the Four Noble Truths."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

pt1
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Re: What is right view?

Postby pt1 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:22 pm


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:06 pm

Hi everyone,

I think that I have found yet another way that the term "right view" is used. In MN 117 it is used to refer to the understanding of what is, and is not the path.

"One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view : this is one's right view"

Do you see that there are two things being called "right view" here ? One is the path factor of right view, the other is an understanding of the difference between that path factor and its opposite - wrong view. The sutta goes on to say the same thing about more path factors :

"One understands wrong intention as wrong intention and right intention as right intention : this is one's right view".

The same is said about speech, action and livelihood. Although this sutta does not go further, we know that there is wrong effort, wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration. These would have to be distinguished from their counterparts in the same way. So, there is a right view which sees what is, and is not, the path.

We are told what the path factor of right view actually is :

"There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed ..."

But this can not be the true path factor of right view, because it can not be developed, and could not lead to enlightenment. So something else is being substituted here in place of the real right view.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:35 pm

Hi retrofuturist,

Sorry - my fault ! I thought that right view could be discussed without problems arising due to my "new interpretation". But I was wrong. Most peoples understanding of the path is different to mine, and this includes right view. I had forgotten that the momentary paths/fruits are explained by a "supramundane" right view. I will read a bit on this topic to refresh my memory.

I have no problem with right view being understanding or wisdom, it is the four truths that are the problem. For me, they are a shallow useless teaching which would not result in enlightenment for anyone. Understanding dependent origination, or no-self in relation to the five aggregates of clinging, would lead to enlightenment. The four noble truths do not tell you how to bring about the cessation of craving.

I think that my understanding of the path is actually simpler, right view is the no-self view.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:49 pm

Hi pt1,

I feel that I should thank you for thoughtful posts. I do not want you to think that I am ignoring you. I need more time to reflect on them before replying. I find the abhidhamma perspective difficult to combine with my suttanta orientation.

Is there really any problem understanding right view ? If so, what do you think the problem is ? What role does no-self have in right view according to the abhidhamma ? Thanks.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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mikenz66
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Re: What is right view?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:06 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:58 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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mikenz66
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Re: What is right view?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:12 pm


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Prasadachitta
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Prasadachitta » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:46 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: What is right view?

Postby pt1 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:50 am


mudra
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Re: What is right view?

Postby mudra » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:12 am

Not sure if this is off topic, but from the Theravada POV, what is wrong view? Is it the same as ignorance? Or does the latter lead to the former?

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Re: What is right view?

Postby pt1 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:38 am



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