Dharma-ending age

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
LauraJ
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:38 pm

Dharma-ending age

Post by LauraJ »

According to Theravada, are we in the dharma-ending age?
Dharma Wheel
Buddha Blog

Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by DNS »

Hi Laura,

According to the Commentaries this is the Dhamma ending age where it is declining. At this stage, the highest one can reach is that of non-returner (anagami). But that would not be bad at all, life in a deva realm for a few million years and then Nibbana.

But from the Suttas themselves, there is no set period of time. For those that take the Suttas as the final authority and take the Commentaries with at least a grain of salt, this is not the Dhamma ending age at all and enlightenment is still possible. Ven. Dhammika writes:
"Here the Buddha was referring to his words as they were remembered by his immediate disciples, later committed to writing and as we have them today in the Tipiṭaka. In this sense, the Dhamma is in no danger of disappearing. In fact, with printing, books and electronic media it has never before been more secure, more easily available and more widely read."
http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=109" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by DNS on Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: updated link to the new website
User avatar
LauraJ
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by LauraJ »

Thanks David :anjali:
Dharma Wheel
Buddha Blog

Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by BlackBird »

Hi David

I was wondering, would it be possible to point to a source in the commentaries where this is said that the highest stage one can attain these days is anagami?
This seems to be a bit of a confusing point for me. As in most of the commentarial 'abhidhamma' traditions I have encountered it is made quite clear (i thought) that the attainment of arahantship is still quite possible.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
pink_trike
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by pink_trike »

Buddha wrote:When the letters are wrongly pronounced and there is wrong interpretation of their meaning. For when the pronunciation is wrong, the interpretation will also be wrong’ (A.I,59).
" In this sense, the Dhamma is in no danger of disappearing. In fact, with printing, books and electronic media it has never before been more secure, more easily available and more widely read."
The bold quote above from the linked page David posted completely ignores what is said in the quote attributed to the Buddha. The phrase ‘the obscuration and disappearance of the good Dhamma’ isn't addressing the availability of "the letters". The Buddha is talking about the precise meaning/translation of words (that depend on inflection) and concepts (that are rooted in culture). Wide availability of books and electronic media have nothing to do with correct inflection/translation and comprehension of meanings rooted in a particular time/place. The Buddha is saying that over time correct translations/meanings will inevitably be lost by those committed to preserving them, and as a result the Dhamma which they attempted to preserve with "the letters" will become buried under their own egoic and cultural centricity, confusion, and babble. The author of the linked page is talking around the two points that the Buddha made, neither of which had anything to do with availability of the words but rather about the clear comprehension of the words as they were originally spoken and intended to be comprehended.

In a time when even the most basic of Dharma concepts and words, let alone the goal, result in endless volumes of debate regarding their meaning both within and between individual traditions of Buddhism, and when secular scholars are deconstructing traditional translations/meanings to reveal countless inconsistencies and mistranslations, and are finding countless syncretic reductions and merges - the idea of a true, intact "word of the Buddha" that precisely and accurately reflects the Dharma is sublimely ridiculous and crudely myopic, and requires facile and sloppy reassurances like the author of the linked page gave us.

In this time, the essence (recognized through practice) is a more dependable window to the Dharma than "the letter".
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17186
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by DNS »

pink_trike wrote: In a time when even the most basic of Dharma concepts and words, let alone the goal, result in endless volumes of debate regarding their meaning both within and between individual traditions of Buddhism, and when secular scholars are deconstructing traditional translations/meanings to reveal countless inconsistencies and mistranslations, and are finding countless syncretic reductions and merges - the idea of a true, intact "word of the Buddha" that precisely and accurately reflects the Dharma is sublimely ridiculous and crudely myopic, and requires facile and sloppy reassurances like the author of the linked page gave us.
In this time, the essence (recognized through practice) is a more dependable window to the Dharma than "the letter".
Hi PT,

Good points. As time goes further from the Buddha or any "original" teaching it does seem to get modified, altered, or reinterpreted, or just plain-old stuff added to it too. The increase in information and access could just be a fuel for the decline, seen in this other way.

Yes, practice is best.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

An excellent post of relevance, made by venerable Dhammanando at Dhamma Study Group.

Original source link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/101337" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Regarding your other question (the one you e-mailed to me) about the decline of
the Buddha's dispensation, I hope you don't mind if I reply here as I seem to
have mislaid the e-mail.

Briefly:

1. The Pali atthakathaas and sub-commentaries are unanimous in their view that
realization (pa.tivedha) in Gotama's dispensation will last for 5,000 years and
then cease. This point is not contested by anyone.


2. However, there is no unanimity in the Atthakathaas concerning the manner of
decline during these 5,000 years. Rather, there are four quite discrepant
predictions of both the order of decline and the timescale for how long each
kind of ariyan attainment will last.

3. Buddhaghosa himself only reports the discrepant predictions without offering
any personal comment. He doesn't draw attention to the discrepancies in the
predictions, or attempt to reconcile them or advocate that one of them should be
preferred over the others.

4. In the sub-commentaries to the Tipi.taka, together with various minor Vinaya
treatise of the 12th-13th centuries, the discrepancies in the predictions are
noted and
explained as being due to their very origin: they are merely the
opinions that arose among different groups of text-reciters (bhaa.naka) and
which Buddhaghosa encountered here and there and wished to record for posterity.

5. If the sub-commentaries are right, then it follows that the status of the
predictions is not that of authoritative commentary (i.e., they are not sourced
in the atthakathaas brought to Ceylon by Mahinda.

6. It further follows that such claims as "non-returnership is the highest
ariyan attainment possible in the present age" or "attainment in the present age
is possible only by dry-visioned practice, not by jhaana" have only the
flimsiest textual support.


To Sarah, Jon, Nina, Rob, etc.

I realize the point of view I have expressed above is rather different to the
one usually voiced in DSG on this subject. However, inasmuch as this judgment of
the .Tiikaa authors has not to my knowledge been challenged by any Theravaadin
scholar of note for the last eight centuries, I believe it has a much stronger
claim to being the orthodox Theravadin view than that expressed in the Thai
article translated by Nina ("The Disappearance of Ariyans") to which readers of
DSG are often directed. The conclusion in that article is:

"It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of
thousand years in the dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the
excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will
only be that of the anaagaamii."

The problem with this conclusion is that it is based upon seriously inadequate
research that doesn't take into account all of the relevant textual sources. In
particular:

1. The article's authors base their conclusion on the prediction of decline in
the Vinaya Atthakathaa, and a parallel passage in the Anguttara Atthakathaa, but
ignore a discrepant prediction also contained in the Anguttara Atthakathaa
(commentary to a nameless sutta in the Pamaadaadi Vagga of the Ekanipaata).

2. They ignore the discrepant prediction in the Samyutta Atthakathaa (commentary
to the Saddhammapa.tiruupaka Sutta).

3. They misunderstand the Digha Atthakathaa's commentary to the Sampasaadaniiya
Sutta as being relevant only to the decline of the past dispensation of Kassapa
Buddha. But the very reason for the commentary describing the decline of
pa.tivedha in Kassapa's dispensation is that the Diigha-bhaa.nakas held that
pa.tivedha in Gotama's dispensation would decline in an identical pattern (as
attested in the Anguttara and Vinaya sub-commentaries).

4. They neglect all of the sub-commentarial and Vinaya treatises in which these
discrepancies are addressed. These are chiefly the Saaratthadiipanii.tiikaa to
the Vinaya Pi.taka, the .tiikaa to the Anguttara Nikaaya, and two other Vinaya
treatises: the Siimavisodhanii and Vimativinodanii.

I regret that I'm not able to give precise citations right now as I'm separated
from my library and writing from memory, but I will try to rectify this omission
when I'm back in Bangkok.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by BlackBird »

Thank you Retro
:anjali:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Those speaking the rhetoric of decline are "more interested in establishing a particular orthodoxy of “true teaching” than in voicing historical predictions of actual decline, prophetic warnings of moral failings, or existential statements about humankind’s capacity for realization. In fact, the beginnings of the Buddhist tradition of decline are best understood as a rhetoric of orthodoxy that marks the appearance of doctrinal differentiation in the Buddhist community. The elements of this argument can be found throughout the various canons, but always in the sense of an exhortation to adhere to the true teachings lest the predicted decline actually come to pass. It was also in China that we first encounter individuals convinced that the predicted demise had actually arrived, due in part to a preexisting and pervasive indigenous discourse of decline. In an interesting twist, the dominant use in China of the Buddhist polemic of orthodoxy was to legitimize new teachings, of which the Three Levels is one example. An important reason for this was that the decline came to be seen in terms of a decline in human nature, a claim about the corrupt existential condition of living beings rather than a decline of time or doctrine."
(Jamie Hubbard: Absolute delusion, perfect Buddhahood : the rise and fall of a Chinese heresy, p. 35)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by chownah »

No need to worry.....one can always pursue paccakabuddhahood..
chownah
pelletboy
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 12:58 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by pelletboy »

chownah wrote:No need to worry.....one can always pursue paccakabuddhahood..
chownah
Thinking about this, can the path to paccekabuddhahood be teached? HOw can one know when to practice and how to practice or know the paramis without the DHamma? Even the Dhamma isn't explicit and complete in teaching how one achieves paccekabuddhahood.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by tiltbillings »

chownah wrote:No need to worry.....one can always pursue paccakabuddhahood..
chownah
bodhi . . . Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bodhi.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by santa100 »

On a practical note, if one finds the environment he's living in is getting worse and worse, he/she should have even bigger motivation to cultivate the Path, to work harder for final enlightenment..knowing that the further the delay, the lesser the chance to reach the goal..
buddhis8
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:45 pm
Location: Taiwan
Contact:

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by buddhis8 »

I guess the most important question here is....is it a Dharma ending age for you?
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Dharma-ending age

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:No need to worry.....one can always pursue paccakabuddhahood..
chownah
bodhi . . . Neither in the canonical texts nor in the old commentaries is it stated that a follower of the Buddha may choose between the three kinds of enlightenment and aspire either to become a Buddha, a Pacceka-Buddha, or an Arahat-disciple. This conception of a choice between three aspirations is, however, frequently found in present-day Theravāda countries, e.g. in Sri Lanka. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bodhi.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have thought about this for a while.
Seems to me that just because it is not explicitly stated that a choice is possible does not mean that no choice is possible.
Seems to me if it is actually not possible to choose then this means we can not choose to aspire to become an Arahat either.
Seems to me that to "pursue" a path is not the same thing as to "choose" a path.
Do the texts cited allow that one can "choose" to be a monk or a lay person?
Do the texts cited allow that one can "choose" to follow the Buddhist path?
Do the texts cited allow that one can "choose" anything? (Does it even deal with "choices"?
chownah
Post Reply