What is right view?

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Re: What is right view?

Postby catmoon » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:53 am

Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.


When I need right view, I just close my left eye. Works great.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:56 am

catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.


When I need right view, I just close my left eye. Works great.

For me it is closing my right eye. While it can be important carefully understand what is entailed in Right View, "Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is right view?

Postby catmoon » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:59 am

OMG he's got Left View! Burn the witch!!!!
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:08 am

catmoon wrote:OMG he's got Left View! Burn the witch!!!!
No, no, no. The witch would be my wife and no one is burning her, but Left View might explain why I like Keith Olbermann rather than that relentless whack-job Glenn Beck.

As for my right eye, in a couple years the cataract will be bad enough to be removed and with a lens replacement, I have very good vision in that eye. Things change.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:56 pm

catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.

We do, don't we? It seems to me there's really only one truly right view, and that's what you see when you see the dhamma; it's the one that gets you there; it's the only one that really matters. Any lower levels of views are just steps on the way, they aren't the true view. And that view is the viewless view, the one that doesn't cling to anything unverifiable by direct insight (and even there keeps an open mind).

:namaste:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:07 pm

nowheat wrote:
catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.

We do, don't we? It seems to me there's really only one truly right view, and that's what you see when you see the dhamma; it's the one that gets you there; it's the only one that really matters. Any lower levels of views are just steps on the way, they aren't the true view. And that view is the viewless view, the one that doesn't cling to anything unverifiable by direct insight (and even there keeps an open mind).

:namaste:

Yup

and I think it is the understatement of the kalpa to say, it is no easy task.

:bow: :buddha1: :bow:

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:45 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Thank you for your most interesting post. I will reply to it in a series of seperate posts, taking one section at a time. My reply to the first section down to where you say ....

"So here knowledge with regard to the four noble truths is called right view" .... is given in my next post.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sat Nov 14, 2009 9:48 pm

Hi everyone,

I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?

"And what, monks, is right view ? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the origin of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called right view". ( DN. 22. 21 Walshe 1987 )

What I saw is that it does not mention "four noble truths". I checked a similar passage in MN 141. 24 and the wording is the same.

And yet we read everywhere that right view is the knowledge of the four noble truths ! Nyanatiloka says it, bhikkhu Bodhi says it, Collins says it, hundreds of writers on buddhism have said it, and we have said it here.

Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.

I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.

If anyone knows of such a passage would they be so kind as to provide a reference.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:48 pm

Can i throw in an answer from a non theravadan perspective?

"all views are wrong views" - TNH

Said various times and ways by various teachers.
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:03 pm

Hi Vincent,

I'm glad that you seem to have finally understood what I meant with
acinteyyo wrote:"So here knowledge with regard to the four noble truths is called right view"

When I say "knowledge with regard to the four noble truths" then what I mean with knowledge is the understanding of suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. Which is in short understanding of the four noble truths. What I don't mean is "to simply know the four noble truths", in the way that one knows what the phrasing contains or things like that, like "the first noble truth is the nature of suffering, birth is suffering... the second noble truth... and so on". Certainly not!
vinasp wrote:It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.

You're right. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths. It is knowledge with regard to the four noble truths. Which means (as I already said) knowledge with regard to suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. It is NOT knowledge of dependent origination. When this simply means to know dependent origination. It is the understanding of dependent origination as well as the understanding of the four noble truths.
One have to have a direct insight in these "truths" to really understand it. "Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.

best wishes, acinteyyo

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?
"And what, monks, is right view ? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the origin of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called right view". ( DN. 22. 21 Walshe 1987 )
What I saw is that it does not mention "four noble truths". I checked a similar passage in MN 141. 24 and the wording is the same.
And yet we read everywhere that right view is the knowledge of the four noble truths ! Nyanatiloka says it, bhikkhu Bodhi says it, Collins says it, hundreds of writers on buddhism have said it, and we have said it here.
Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.
I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.
If anyone knows of such a passage would they be so kind as to provide a reference.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:49 am

acinteyyo wrote:"Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.

Maybe the word you're looking for is "experience". Right view is having the experience of the four noble truths, and the experience of dependent origination? Experience in the sense of "living"?

:namaste:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:51 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
"all views are wrong views" - TNH


Which is, of course, a view, but it is not without truth even from a Theravadin point of view. Views are tools for awakening. Can't do without them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:02 am

nowheat wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:"Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.

Maybe the word you're looking for is "experience". Right view is having the experience of the four noble truths, and the experience of dependent origination? Experience in the sense of "living"?

:namaste:

rather another word. in that simile "seeing the door" and "walked through the door" experience is envolved in both parts. what I meant is more what comes after the experience. you see the door, so you know that there is the door. but you don't know anything with regard to the door. you don't have understanding yet. you don't know how to open it, you don't know what's behind, you don't know how it is walking through the door and so on. when you examinend and experienced all these things you'll gain some kind of insight. you know then what is the doors purpose, how to open it, how it is to walk through and so on. you understand the "nature of doors".
maybe this makes it a bit more clear.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Clueless Git » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:
"all views are wrong views" - TNH


Which is, of course, a view ...

I wanted to say that!
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:26 pm

vinasp wrote:I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.

Hi Vincent,

I read your post a second time. I'm wondering how you understood the meaning of the phrasing "four noble truths", when not as understanding of suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering? I can't imagine any other understanding. There is DN16 where it is said:
"Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."

Here are the four noble truths clearly defined as suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. And therefore means the quote from DN22:
"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.

that right view is knowledge with regard to the four noble truths. Okay I see that in the above mentioned quote it is not written "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to the noble truth of stress... and so on, but DN16 makes clear that dukkha, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation actually are the noble truths.
For me it is obvious.
To realize and penetrate the four noble truths one has to understand dependent origination so I'm of the same opinion like you when you said:
vinasp wrote:Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination.

The four noble truths are a very subtle teaching, straight to the point but not as detailed as some other teachings. But as we can see from DN16, who has been realized and penetrated the four noble truths can say: "cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming".
What does it mean? No more birth which is the beginning of all the mass of dukkha. The deathless - nibbana.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:37 pm

vinasp wrote: I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?
Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.

I think you are too caught up in the ideas and words and too little caught up in the actual practice and insight, Vincent. When we get to talking about Right View we are talking about what one knows, understands, sees, comprehends, experiences directly for oneself through concentrative practices.

The Buddha used many different words to say one thing over and over and over. He slanted the teachings this way, then he slanted them that way, trying new approaches to reach different people. He uses metaphors for the same four noble truths, like "world" instead of "suffering" in the one where he talks about walking to the end of the world. If you stop trying to read layers of ulterior meanings into these metaphors you'd come to an understanding of it much more quickly. There is nothing hidden here, there is just one dhamma being described a thousand different ways. Dependent origination describes it, the five aggregates describe it, the three marks describe it, and the four noble truths stated many different ways describe it.

:namaste:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:45 pm

Hi everyone,

There seems to be some confusion and misunderstanding here on this thread. I will try to sort things out. The confusion appears to be in three main areas :

1. Confusion about the meaning of "view" ( ditthi).

2. Confusion about whether right view is one thing or continuously changing.

3. Confusion about what exactly the four noble truths are.

In this post I will explain my understanding of "view" ( ditthi).

My understanding is that "view" has two meanings - it can mean a belief or a speculative opinion - and it can also mean to directly know and see what is true. For the first meaning one can look at the Brahmajala Sutta (DN. 1) where sixty-two
views about "the self and the world" are described. Most instances of the use of the term "view" are of this type. But there is another use of "view" which is found less often and can only be understood as knowing and seeing the truth. The best example of this is "right view" as the first factor of the noble eightfold path. Another example is the following passage :

"...that view which is noble, leading onwards, which leads, for the man who acts on it, to the complete destruction of suffering"(MN 48.7).

This second meaning of "view" explains why right view is often understood as wisdom or insight.

Pali dictionaries often give both meanings eg. view, belief, insight. Some explain that ditthi literally means "sight" derived from the root "dis" - to see.

There is therefore no need to think that the enlightened individual has eliminated all views, or that all views are wrong. Nor do we need to try to deny that right view is a view.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:43 am

Hi everyone,

Here we examine whether it makes any sense to say that the view of "no-self" is not always right view, but is sometimes wrong view.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did the Buddha teach no-self, or did he just say that there was no self in the five aggregates.

Dhammapada verses 277, 278 and 279.
All mentally constructed things are impermanent (sabbe samkhara anicca).
All mentally constructed things are suffering (sabbe samkhara dukkha).
All things are not-self ( sabbe dhamma anatta).

"Again, Ananda, when asked by the Wanderer : "Is there a self?" had I replied that there is, would my reply be in accordance with the knowledge that all things are not-self?" "Surely not, Lord". PTS Kindred Sayings IV page 282.

The usual teaching method is to point out that nothing in our experience is a self or is related to a self. This is to show that self is just a concept. In fact, a mis-conception. A grammatical mistake, taking an indexical to be an actual thing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Buddha knows that "all things are not self" so when he is asked "is there a self?" he can not say that there is. Clearly, his view is that there is no self. Now, the Buddha "knows and sees things as they really are" this is his right view. So it must
include the view of "no-self". Therefore "no-self" is always right view and "self" is always wrong view.

The above is always true if "view of no-self" is understood to mean direct knowing and seeing of the truth. Whether someone could be clinging to a "no-self" belief is an interesting question but does not alter the truth of the statement above.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:55 am

Hi everyone,

Several posters have quoted a passage which speaks about the conditions for the arising of right view. I have no objection to that passage but I suspect that I am understanding it in a different way. For me, the passage is talking about the arising of right view - which only happens once. The arising of right view is the arising of the noble eightfold path - all eight path factors arise together.

It seems that you may be understanding it in some other way. Do you think it happens more than once ? Can you show me a passage from the five nikayas which clearly speaks of right view arising more than once ?
Why are you quoting this passage, and how do you understand it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:59 am

Hi everyone,

This is about the four noble truths.

Item 1. "It is this craving, giving rise to rebirth, accompanied by delight and ..."

What is item 1 ? It is : "The noble truth of the origin of suffering".

Item 2. "The noble truth of the origin of suffering".

What is item 2 ? It is the name of item 1.

So any passage which speaks about knowing or understanding the noble truth of the origin of suffering, means understanding item 1, knowing that craving is the origin of suffering. This is a limited understanding, dependent origination explains much more.

What has to be done in relation to the four noble truths ?

The noble truth of suffering - is to be fully understood.
The noble truth of the origin of suffering - is to be abandoned.
The noble truth of the cessation of suffering - is to be realised.
The noble truth of the path which leads to ... - is to be developed.

There is no word in English which captures the meaning of all these things. So we will have to choose a word which we all agree on to mean all four things which must be done. Otherwise the confusion will continue. What is that word ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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