Hi tiltbillings,
"Says who ?" That is just my interpretation but the following passages are interesting.
"Monks, there is a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that not-born ... were not, there would be no escape here from what is born, become, made, compounded. But since, monks, there is a not-born ... therefore there is an escape from what is born, become, made, compounded". Itiv. 43. Translated by Nanananda, Concept and Reality, pages 71-72.
"By knowing the destruction of formations be thou O Brahmin, one who knows the unmade" Dhp. 383.
"And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbana". MN 26. 19.
"There is, monks, that sphere wherein there is neither earth nor water nor fire nor air, wherein is neither the sphere of infinite space, nor that of infinite consciousness, nor that of nothingness, nor that of neither-perception nor non-perception; wherein there is neither this world nor a world beyond, nor moon and sun. There, monks, I declare, is no coming, no going, no stopping, no passing away, no arising. It is not established, it continues not, it has no object. This, indeed, is the end of suffering." Ud. 80. ( Nanananda page 71 ).
"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation. A.N. II. 48
Best wishes, Vincent.
Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
but none of that says he couldnt do jhana or enter jhana or however you put it. he still had a mind, still had a body subject to all the ailments and weakness' that the rest of us face (headaches, tummy aches etc) he still pooped, pee'd etc. he seems still quite capable of doing something as "simple" as jhana doesnt he?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
So, what is this text actually saying?vinasp wrote:Hi tiltbillings,
"Says who ?" That is just my interpretation but the following passages are interesting.
"Monks, there is a not-born, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. Monks, if that not-born ... were not, there would be no escape here from what is born, become, made, compounded. But since, monks, there is a not-born ... therefore there is an escape from what is born, become, made, compounded". Itiv. 43 [37-8]. Translated by Nanananda, Concept and Reality, pages 71-72.
What is actually destroyed?"By knowing the destruction of formations be thou O Brahmin, one who knows the unmade" Dhp. 383.
What is actually stilled?"And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbana". MN 26. 19.
What is this “sphere?”"There is, monks, that sphere wherein there is neither earth nor water nor fire nor air, wherein is neither the sphere of infinite space, nor that of infinite consciousness, nor that of nothingness, nor that of neither-perception nor non-perception; wherein there is neither this world nor a world beyond, nor moon and sun. There, monks, I declare, is no coming, no going, no stopping, no passing away, no arising. It is not established, it continues not, it has no object. This, indeed, is the end of suffering." Ud. 80. ( Nanananda page 71 ).
What is the “world?”"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation. A.N. II. 48
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi tiltbillings,
Your second and third questions seem to be asking about formations. I made a short post a few weeks ago giving a simple explanation. It seems fitting to repost it here with some additional remarks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is a mental construction ?
Pali : Samkhara - (mental) formation, construction.
Remember that kamma (action) is re-defined by the Buddha as cetana (intention or volition). Volition builds habits and these habits are called mental constructions. Almost everything in a normal persons state of mind is habits, built up over many years. habits of feeling, habits of perception, habits of thinking, habits of craving, habits of attachment, habits of belief. The normal state of mind is a mass of habits. We learn to think, see and behave in certain ways. We become conditioned.
Much of this learnt behaviour is unavoidable and perfectly wholesome. But a portion of it is unwholesome. When Buddhism talks about eliminating these mental constructions it means the unwholesome ones - otherwise one would be reduced to the state of a new-born baby! But how can these mental constructions be eliminated ? The key is that these constructions result from mis-understandings of certain things. When these mis-understandings are corrected then the resultant constructions just dissappear. This is why samkharas are said to be impermanent - it means capable of ceasing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional remarks.
Samkhara means a constructive activity. When used for something in the real world the thing made is called a samkhata. So if a potter is making a pot then his actions are a samkhara and the pot is a samkhata.
For things in the mind samkhara is the usual term. So a belief is a samkhara. Now, a belief may persist for years. It looks like a static thing, but it is really an ongoing activity. So the belief will persist only as long as the activity continues. We do not normally see this activity.
One interpretation of the dependent origination formula sees it as a representation of the unenlightened mind. Eleven layers of samkharas grounded in ignorance. Habits of clinging depend on habits of craving, which depend on habits of feeling and so on. But the formula is "dual use" so some links are named in a way which is suitable for explaining rebirth using a
temporal interpretation. When understood psychologically a non temporal interpretation is employed, and some links need to be re-interpreted in a psycholgical sense. Understood in this way, the formula shows all the things which dissappear.
Answers to questions 1, 4 and 5 to follow.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Your second and third questions seem to be asking about formations. I made a short post a few weeks ago giving a simple explanation. It seems fitting to repost it here with some additional remarks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is a mental construction ?
Pali : Samkhara - (mental) formation, construction.
Remember that kamma (action) is re-defined by the Buddha as cetana (intention or volition). Volition builds habits and these habits are called mental constructions. Almost everything in a normal persons state of mind is habits, built up over many years. habits of feeling, habits of perception, habits of thinking, habits of craving, habits of attachment, habits of belief. The normal state of mind is a mass of habits. We learn to think, see and behave in certain ways. We become conditioned.
Much of this learnt behaviour is unavoidable and perfectly wholesome. But a portion of it is unwholesome. When Buddhism talks about eliminating these mental constructions it means the unwholesome ones - otherwise one would be reduced to the state of a new-born baby! But how can these mental constructions be eliminated ? The key is that these constructions result from mis-understandings of certain things. When these mis-understandings are corrected then the resultant constructions just dissappear. This is why samkharas are said to be impermanent - it means capable of ceasing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional remarks.
Samkhara means a constructive activity. When used for something in the real world the thing made is called a samkhata. So if a potter is making a pot then his actions are a samkhara and the pot is a samkhata.
For things in the mind samkhara is the usual term. So a belief is a samkhara. Now, a belief may persist for years. It looks like a static thing, but it is really an ongoing activity. So the belief will persist only as long as the activity continues. We do not normally see this activity.
One interpretation of the dependent origination formula sees it as a representation of the unenlightened mind. Eleven layers of samkharas grounded in ignorance. Habits of clinging depend on habits of craving, which depend on habits of feeling and so on. But the formula is "dual use" so some links are named in a way which is suitable for explaining rebirth using a
temporal interpretation. When understood psychologically a non temporal interpretation is employed, and some links need to be re-interpreted in a psycholgical sense. Understood in this way, the formula shows all the things which dissappear.
Answers to questions 1, 4 and 5 to follow.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi tiltbillings,
Q.1. What is this passage saying ?
In the mind, we can talk of the things made or the activity which is making them. This passage speaks of things made (katassa, sankhatassa) and things become (bhutassa). Born (jatassa) is a figure of speech. All these terms are roughly equivalent and mean the same thing. So it is just saying that there is a not-made (state of mind) which is the escape from the made (state of mind).
Q.5. What does "world" mean ?
I have not looked at this passage in Pali but it is probably "loka" which the old PTS dictionary says means - world, cosmos. When the self is constructed a world is constructed along with it. So self and world end together. The world constructed by people at this time would be better described as a cosmos. All three realms and all thirty-one classes of beings should be included.
Answer to question 4 to follow.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Q.1. What is this passage saying ?
In the mind, we can talk of the things made or the activity which is making them. This passage speaks of things made (katassa, sankhatassa) and things become (bhutassa). Born (jatassa) is a figure of speech. All these terms are roughly equivalent and mean the same thing. So it is just saying that there is a not-made (state of mind) which is the escape from the made (state of mind).
Q.5. What does "world" mean ?
I have not looked at this passage in Pali but it is probably "loka" which the old PTS dictionary says means - world, cosmos. When the self is constructed a world is constructed along with it. So self and world end together. The world constructed by people at this time would be better described as a cosmos. All three realms and all thirty-one classes of beings should be included.
Answer to question 4 to follow.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Re: Jhana in Mahaparinibbana
Hi tiltbillings,
Q.4. Sphere : ayatana : sphere, base, region.
A term with a wide range of meanings, see old PTS dictionary page 105. The two main uses are in connection with :
1. The four formless absorptions (arupa-jjhana) (arupayatana).
2. The internal and external sense-bases or sense-spheres.
This passage may be open to as many as three interpretations :
1. A puthujjana monk may see it as a description of the highest concentration state - called "the cessation of perception and feeling". This is an unconscious state. This state may sometimes be thought to be nibbana - it is not.
2. As how things appear to an arahant. The four elements have ceased, the three realms have ceased. A description of nibbana element with residue remaining. ( this world = kama-dhatu, world beyond = rupa-dhatu). The sun and moon are a symbolic reference to vedic cosmology.
3. As how things appear to a sambhodi/tathagata. This interpretation takes "this world" and "world beyond" in a different sense. Here "this world" means all three realms. This is the nibbana element with no residue remaining.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Q.4. Sphere : ayatana : sphere, base, region.
A term with a wide range of meanings, see old PTS dictionary page 105. The two main uses are in connection with :
1. The four formless absorptions (arupa-jjhana) (arupayatana).
2. The internal and external sense-bases or sense-spheres.
This passage may be open to as many as three interpretations :
1. A puthujjana monk may see it as a description of the highest concentration state - called "the cessation of perception and feeling". This is an unconscious state. This state may sometimes be thought to be nibbana - it is not.
2. As how things appear to an arahant. The four elements have ceased, the three realms have ceased. A description of nibbana element with residue remaining. ( this world = kama-dhatu, world beyond = rupa-dhatu). The sun and moon are a symbolic reference to vedic cosmology.
3. As how things appear to a sambhodi/tathagata. This interpretation takes "this world" and "world beyond" in a different sense. Here "this world" means all three realms. This is the nibbana element with no residue remaining.
Best wishes, Vincent.