Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi nowheat,
nowheat wrote: When I asked earlier what Right View had to do with Concentration, I felt sure that anyone who'd practiced the Buddha's path for even a little while would testify that the relationship between the two goes two ways:

(1) Your meditation isn't going to do you a whole lot of good if you don't have Right View. You can sit and meditate on how good sex is all you want and it's not going to get you liberated. So Right View is clearly a support and requisite for Right Concentration.

(2) You get a much more accurate view the more you practice concentration. Meditation is about seeing directly, and seeing for yourself. So Right Concentration is a requisite and support for Right View.

The two run around each other in just the same way that Right View, Right Effort, and Right Mindfulness run a circle around whatever factor we're discussing to support them (as the Buddha mentions in this very sutta).
Of course. And point (1) is certainly implied in the Sutta.
One wonders if the Buddha, or the reciters, got a little tired at about the point of livelihood and left out some passages about how right this and right that run and circle around right this and that and the other, including concentration...

Metta
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by BlackBird »

Thank you for writing out that summary Nowheat. Certainly was a worthwhile read.

metta
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

PART IV: What's Concentration Got To Do With It? (Part Two)

As others have mentioned, the supramundane Right View as listed in this sutta is (ironically) viewless, that is, (1) there's nothing mentioned about what views one holds when it is described and (2) it mentions only knowledge and wisdom. What does a viewless view consist of, then? It seems clear it consists of knowledge and wisdom.

Is having no views just a wishy-washy state in which you say, "I don't know?" No, that's the skeptic's view, the one Sanjaya held, that the Buddha made fun of (perhaps a bit unjustly, but that's a discussion for another thread). This viewless view isn't "I give up" and it's not a refusal to even try to consider the information coming in, it's not avoidance of issues and it's certainly not ignorance. This supramundane "view" is made up of knowledge and wisdom, says this sutta. How do we get such knowledge and wisdom? By studying what everyone else tells us? I suppose it helps to hear the arguments of others, but it seems clear to me that the Buddha has always taught that simply accepting the teachings of others without evidence is not the way. He taught that you must see for yourself.

And that, of course, is where Right Concentration comes in, because it's only through serious investigation that one can ever reach that viewless view. I believe this is why he says, in this sutta, that Right View is foremost, and why he emphasizes it in every section of the sutta:
Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong intention as wrong intention and right intention as right intention: this is one's right view....
...One understands wrong speech as wrong speech and right speech as right speech: this is one's right view...
...One understands wrong action as wrong action and right action as right action: this is one's right view...
...One understands wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood and right livelihood as right livelihood: this is one's right view...
All of these right views may be seen as things we gain through intellectual understanding, but it seems to me that there's a difference between the knowledge made up of information – the things we have learned from the word of others – and knowledge made up of experience – which is the true knowledge. Surely only the latter kind of knowledge brings one to liberation from suffering? And as Mike pointed out, in the final substantial section of this sutta, there is a rendition of the arising of one factor after another, in the usual order, ending in “right concentration” leading to the arising of “right knowledge” followed by “right deliverance”.

I would argue that one very subtle thing this sutta is saying by including the less usual factors of the higher path, wisdom and liberation, following concentration (which is the focus of the sutta) is that direct knowledge is key to Right View, and it is obtained through concentration.

Does anyone else see this in this sutta? Or am I misreading it?

:namaste:
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mikenz66
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi nowheat,
nowheat wrote: I would argue that one very subtle thing this sutta is saying by including the less usual factors of the higher path, wisdom and liberation, following concentration (which is the focus of the sutta) is that direct knowledge is key to Right View, and it is obtained through concentration.
Just a comment about the "extra factors". I've been reading MN118, Anapanasati Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; lately, and note that it talks about, in Ven Thanissaro's translation "clear knowing & release". The Nanamoli/Bodhi translation is "true knowledge and deliverance". Perhaps one of our Pali scholars could elucidate the similarity/difference between these terms in MN118 and the "right knowledge, right release" (Thanissaro) "right knowledge, right deliverance" (Nanamoli/Bodhi) in MN117.

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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

PART V: Basis for the Conclusion

Since I did an extended summary of everything a few posts back (end of page 5, top of page 6) I'm going to give only my briefest summary here:

* that MN 117 The Great Forty has been read without considering the context, which is that it was a rebuttal of three negative doctrines as listed at the end of the sutta
* that these three negative doctrines are described with catch-phrases well known in the Buddha's time in “Wrong View” at the beginning of the sutta
* that these are (1) non-causality which equates to the Brahminical view of the world in which offerings, gifts and sacrifices do cause certain effects in the world through correspondence, (2) non-action which equates to a denial of kamma, and (3) nihilism which equates to a denial of just about every belief system
* that these three negative views are reflected in their positive versions in “Right View, with Effluents”
* that the three kinds of views: Wrong View, Right View with Effluents, and Supramundane Right View represent an arc moving away from immoral views to the supramundane “view” that is the most moral
* and finally that since this is a sutta about concentration in which “Right View is Foremost” the sutta is saying both that Right View is needed for productive practice of concentration, and that direct insight through concentration is needed for Right View – as well as to win the extra factors of the path listed here – right knowledge and release.

We haven't talked a lot about the term “effluents” and that is the last piece I need to include here. Let me quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's audio talk on MN 117 (Part 1, to be found here: http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/MN/MN_course.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Now we come to right view. This is where it becomes more interesting. We see this distinction, “Right view, I say, is two-fold. There is right view that is affected by taints...” Here the Pali expression is simpler, “sasava” that is literally, “with the asavas”, with the (I don't like “taints”) “with the influxes” or “corruptions”. “Partaking of merit,” now we have an expression a little obscure, the translation is “ripening in the acquisitions”: “upadhivepakkà”. What is meant here by “the acquisitions”, that is the word “upadhi”, which has several shades of meaning, but the relevant meaning here would be “the five aggregates that constitute personal existence”. And so meritorious right view, ripens in the acquisitions, in that it leads to acquiring a new set of five aggregates in the future, that is it's still, you could call it “right view which is still bound up with samsaric existence”. It's still a mundane right view. It's an important type of right view for leading a righteous life within the world. It's the right view that will help one to steer clear of unwholesome courses of action, and to undertake wholesome courses of action.
In general, I agree with the flavor of what is said above, but I disagree on one fine point.

The definitions of the word “with effluents” (Access To Insight's translation) and “with taints” (Wisdom Pubs translation) can mean “with the influxes” or “corruptions” and the rather obscure part about “ripening in the acquisitions” means this belief continues to generate samsaric existence, or in other words, keeps us generating those five aggregates which are self-views. This is considered, in the description above, to be “an important type of right view for leading a righteous life within the world”.

When seen as an arc, from “wrong view” – one that does others harm and whose representatives demonstrate by their actions amorality – through “right view with taints” in which your behavior is improved over “wrong view” but is still generating a self-centered view – to the supramundane right view which is the most moral, yes, I can see that it's an important view for leading a *more* righteous life within the world, but not *The* Righteous Life.

It is clear to me that the Buddha's path, the one he is aiming to teach all of us, is the Supramundane view, the one that is NOT “tainted”, “corrupted” “with influxes” or “ripening in acquisitions” that “leads to acquiring a new set of five aggregates in the future” – how could a path, so described, possibly be the one he wants us to follow? Sure, it's better than the Wrong View, and if you're in Wrong View, it's something to aim for, a first step, but it surely is not the path the Buddha teaches. Why would he teach us to practice something that “leads to acquiring a new set of five aggregates in the future”?
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mikenz66
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi nowheat,
nowheat wrote:Why would he teach us to practice something that “leads to acquiring a new set of five aggregates in the future”?
I don't see the problem. You seem to be reading a contradiction where there isn't one. As I understand it, acquiring that "mundane" right view is not the "goal", it's a precursor to acquiring the liberating right view. In the Suttas a few students jump straight to liberation. For others it is not that simple and they spend years getting there.

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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

mikenz66 wrote:
nowheat wrote:Why would he teach us to practice something that “leads to acquiring a new set of five aggregates in the future”?
I don't see the problem. You seem to be reading a contradiction where there isn't one. As I understand it, acquiring that "mundane" right view is not the "goal", it's a precursor to acquiring the liberating right view. In the Suttas a few students jump straight to liberation. For others it is not that simple and they spend years getting there.
Whereas to me it seems a little like a coach recruiting some talented kid who has been using his skills to commit crimes, bringing him in off the street, and teaching him to play football in ways that will cause him to hurt himself till he gets good enough at it to learn "real" football. It seems far more logical to go straight for teaching the stuff that's not harmful and work on those skills.

:namaste:

And then of course, there's the observation that:
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

PART VI: Conclusion

Since the Mundane Right View (with effluents, taints, corruptions, that results in acquisitions -- causing one to keep generating the five aggregates that bind you to the self-view) by this reading, include the Brahminical view of the cosmos that ritual and sacrifice are effective, this cannot be part of the Buddha's actual path. He is saying here that these are mundane (worldly) views in the sense that they are common amongst the people of his day; he is showing tolerance for such views because they are morally far superior to the wrong views. He is *not* saying that you have to practice these views to get to his path, though one supposes in his day most people did start from one of them prior to coming to him as a teacher. He is saying that you have to get past these views, and get to his viewless view, to get to liberation. Mundane Right View, therefore, is not the Buddha's path. There is only one path in this sutta that the Buddha teaches, and that is the supramundane path.

:namaste:
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by vinasp »

Hi nowheat,

What are the asava's ?

Enlightenment is the elimination of many things which are always present in an unenlightened mind. The earliest description of these things is "asava's".These things are divided into three groups :

1. kama-asava - everything connected with sense pleasures - feelings, cravings and clinging.

2. bhava-asava - everything connected with existence/ becoming - feelings, cravings and clinging.

3. avijja-asava - a multitude of wrong views and mis-conceptions.

The elimination of these three asava's is enlightenment, nothing else is required. The arahant is said to be "free of asava's" or to have "destroyed the asava's". In some passages describing enlightenment these three asava's are explicitly mentioned by name. They can be eliminated *only* by "seeing" as explained in MN 2 .

Note : in fact there are four asava's but this is an "advanced level" topic.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

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Hi NoWheat,
nowheat wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Whereas to me it seems a little like a coach recruiting some talented kid who has been using his skills to commit crimes, bringing him in off the street, and teaching him to play football in ways that will cause him to hurt himself till he gets good enough at it to learn "real" football. It seems far more logical to go straight for teaching the stuff that's not harmful and work on those skills.
I take the mundane part of the path to be minimising harm.

If you have discovered a method of going straight to liberation, without doing the mundane work, please share it with us... It would save us a lot of trouble.

Metta
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

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mikenz66 wrote: If you have discovered a method of going straight to liberation, without doing the mundane work, please share it with us... It would save us a lot of trouble.
Sure, Mike, no problem: Simply do as MN 117 suggests here and give up clinging to views that performing rituals and sacrifice is helpful; that kamma and merit are not just views but The System; let go of the concept of the self as containing the whole world and that knowing this will allow you to live forever in the world beyond; give up believing that ancestor worship is a good use of your time; let go of the view that there are beings that are spontaneously reborn; cease believing that there are teachers out there who travel to the other worlds and return to teach about them. In fact, let go of all views: that is clearly what this sutta says is Right View. Understand suffering, its cause, cessation, and the path that leads to the end of suffering -- while not clinging to unverifiable views. Understand anicca, dukkha, anatta; the dependent nature of all things, including the way we construct a self in our ignorance. It's not some weird alternate path -- it's what the Buddha teaches is the way to liberation. Nothing says it's instantaneous or that you don't have to work at it -- but you're right, it will save time if we let go of such views rather than making them part of the path that you have to learn to let go of later.

:namaste:
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, sure, I know that's the theory.

Actually doing it is not so simple... "Let go of the view..." is still a view...

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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

mikenz66 wrote: Actually doing it is not so simple... "Let go of the view..." is still a view...
Only till you manage it, then it's gone.

:namaste:
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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by Sanghamitta »

nowheat wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Actually doing it is not so simple... "Let go of the view..." is still a view...
Only till you manage it, then it's gone.

:namaste:
You see this as a one off ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: Sutta Readers: Shoot Me Down, Please

Post by nowheat »

Sanghamitta wrote:
nowheat wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Actually doing it is not so simple... "Let go of the view..." is still a view...
Only till you manage it, then it's gone.

:namaste:
You see this as a one off ?
My understanding is that the Buddha saw it that way. Once one became an arahant and finally let go of views, they did not return to them. We would be talking experiential knowledge here, not theoretical.

What is your thought?

:namaste:
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