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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:17 am

gavesako wrote:The Buddhist Channel: Why the imposed "silence" on the Wat Pah Pong / Bhikkuni Ordination issue
by Lim Kooi Fong, Editorial, The Buddhist Channel, Nov 8, 2009

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -- On November 6, 2009, the Buddhist Channel imposed an editorial decision which contravened its mission statement, which is "Free Inquiry, Right Speech, One Dharma".

On that day, we made a decision to "cease the publication of any further news or updates with regards to the Wat Pa Pong / Western Buddhist Sangha situation." (...)

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 68,0,0,1,0


Thanks Bhante.

In the article on the Buddhist Channel it says Bhikkhu Bodhi issued a statement of support but retracted it 3 days later.

Does anyone know what was behind this??

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:00 am

Yes Bankei I know about it.

There is a message about this here http://sujato.wordpress.com/

It seems Bhikkhu Bodhi has become concerned about the secrecy aspects and said it would have been preferrable if Bhikkhu Brahm had waiting for the WAM in December before proceding.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:05 am

Bankei wrote:There is a message about this here http://sujato.wordpress.com/


But fortunately, he (Bhikkhu Bodhi) is still in full support as he always has been:

I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called “Mahayana countries” or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravāda tradition in our time.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:09 am

phalanyani wrote:Ajahn brahm dared something that might seem to be wrong now to some, but it will help to establish Buddhism in the west. Women are kind of tired of religions that try to tell them that they are lower, unworthier, that they can not ...
That's just not what the Buddha taught. And there are sources enough for us to hear, read, see and understand that it is not so. Buddha taught there is no difference between men and women, that's what makes Buddhism so attractive to women.

May the fourfold society of Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen grow strong in the west. Not traditions are worth to be followed - the lord Buddhas Dhamma is!


:bow:

Thank you for your post and your work for the Dhamma!
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby appicchato » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:01 pm

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=70,8667,0,0,1,0
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:18 am

There is now a website with various letters expressing the Wat Pah Pong point of view. Some of them rather interesting:
http://dhammalight.org/

Discussion continues at Ven Sujato's Blog
http://sujato.wordpress.com/
and
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby roni » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:17 am

Some more links:

Scholarly article on the garudhammas by Nirmala S. Salgado: http://www.buddhistethics.org/15/salgado-article.pdf
Present - the Voices and Activities of Theravadan Buddhist Women: http://www.bhikkhuni.net/PresentIndex.asp
Facebook site "Women & the Forest Sangha": http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... 3235999615
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:29 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Raga Mala wrote:The most important point and that to which we must continually return is that the bhikkhuni ordination is UNARGUABLY a valid Vinaya practice under the rules of the Vinaya Pitaka.

If so, why is there any dispute about it? Shouting doesn't make something true. It merely indicates that you are strongly attached to your opinion, which is almost certain to lead to arguments. It is better to follow Ajahn Chah's advice — it is not sure.

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.



Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:48 pm

Chris, others,
Chris wrote:Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.

I agree. I find it very sad that these events have led to polarizations, and are being used as a one-dimensional defining classifier. From reading various comments on the internet it seems that in the eyes of some anyone who is not 100% behind full Bhikkhunni ordination RIGHT NOW (or preferably earlier) is hopelessly conservative.

Ajahn Sumedho's recent talk addressing a group of nuns about to leave the UK for the USA is worth listening to and pondering:
http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/mp3s/dt/T ... to_USA.mp3

I wish the Bhikkhunis, Bhikkhus, and all beings, success in awakening...

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:23 pm

Chris wrote:...
Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.
...

While there is definitely one issue about procedure - and it seems indeed that the ordination issue might have been handled more skillfully (with hindsight at least)-, I think it has also been made clear by WPP that it DOES oppose the ordination of women within in the Theravada/Thai Forest tradition (in Thailand and it's branches abroad):

"... the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad had made a decision against ordaining Bhikkhunis, which was restated many times .... The individuals concerned cannot be considered Theravada Bhikkhunis, as this status contradicts the law of the Mahatherasamakhom, the Sangha administration of the Theravada order in Thailand. Ajahn Brahmavamso had been continually informed of this law ..."
http://www.dhammalight.com/official/WPP_Letter_on_Bhikkhuni_Ordination.html

With that in mind, it is interesting to see who does - and does not - focus exclusively on the procedure issue while - perhaps conveniently - ignore the content issue.

I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).
I still hope that other sanghas will also take a positive stand in this matter.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:53 pm

Hi Vardali,
Vardali wrote:With that in mind, it is interesting to see who does - and does not - focus exclusively on the procedure issue while - perhaps conveniently - ignore the content issue.

As I said above, I believe that it is rather one-dimensional to assume that anyone who does not come out 100% in support of the ordination in Perth is opposed to Bhikkhuni ordination, or opposed to women, or opposed to whatever the assumer happens to be in favour of...

I would rather assume that the issues are complex.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BudSas » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:05 am

Vardali wrote:
I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).



That's interesting. However, I'm not surprised (as I wrote earlier in this thread, on Nov 05).

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:22 am

Vardali wrote:
Chris wrote:...
I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).
I still hope that other sanghas will also take a positive stand in this matter.

Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:57 am

Yes, Vardali, .... I'd like to see the link and the actual information about the branches of the Forest Tradition in Germany also please.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:38 pm

pilgrim wrote:--
Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.

Here you go, the statement of the associatione/society concerning bhikkhuni ordination in the Thai tradition
http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/14/waldkloster-e-v/

And here the monastries this group is covering in Germany.
http://www.buddhistisches-waldkloster.de/kloester.html

:anjali:
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:25 am

Vardali wrote:
pilgrim wrote:--
Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.

Here you go, the statement of the associatione/society concerning bhikkhuni ordination in the Thai tradition
http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/14/waldkloster-e-v/


English translation of the statement on bhikkhuni ordination: (by google translator, not the best, but much faster than I could do)

Thanks to the conservation and preservation of the tradition in the Asian countries, Buddhism has arrived in its monastic form in the West. But shows 2500 years after the extinction of the Awakened that the purity change is no longer visible anywhere in the original form. There is a growing structural divergence from the original Dhamma-Vinaya clearly have established themselves over the centuries. It is fair to go so far as to say that, in the important areas of interaction of the four meetings is no longer the Dhamma-Vinaya is the sole authority, but hierarchical structures, people and even state-supporting institutions have their say, which is located at more Machtenfaltung and maintaining power than in the exercise of the doctrine of the sublime. The examples are numerous.

The association Buddhist forest monastery would hereby clearly distance themselves from those traditionally grown variations of Buddhism and their representatives.

Basically noted that most conflicts within the Sangha, as well as conflicts with non-ordained to be a reversal of the actual teaching, the true refuge for all Buddhists - the very Dhamma-Vinaya are lead back.

The Association would therefore like to encourage a salutary return to the Dhamma-Vinaya, to this country can beat the Buddhism in his scholarly way, from the sublime root. This is only possible if the four meetings (monks, nuns, laypeople and lay supporters) from the sublime ENVISAGED fulfill their obligations.

D16: "I'm Not, Evil, completely extinguished, do not mean to monks, nuns, my, my lay followers, be my listeners and supporters lay listeners are educated, restrained, fearless, skilled, bearers of the doctrine, teaching, and knowing's advice , acting with a reasonable approach to teaching. Until they explain that they have learned from their own teacher, recite, adopted, justified, may explain, analyze, erect to proclaim to refute false teachings created with the help of the doctrine, once they have disproved (it) proclaim it the overriding lesson. "

These words of the Master shortly before its final extinction are clear. We are committed to ensuring that it is not by ordained as well as by-ordained to be implemented.

The cooperation and harmony of the four meetings is the only way to unlock the true Dhamma of the Exalted in this country really grow and thrive in its original form to.

M 73: "Because Bhikkhunis and monks, dressed in white lay followers and supporters dressed in white lay people, both those that a celibate life cause, as well as those who are enjoying sensual pleasure, are successful in this Dhamma, this holy life so fully in this regard.

As Gangesfluß moves towards the sea to the sea draws in the direction of the sea flows and extends to the sea, it also moves Master Gotama Folgschaft to their homelessness and their householders to Nibbana, is coming to Nibbana, which flows towards Nibbana, and extends up to Nibbana. "

It is our statutory objective to support an original Buddhism, in which modesty, honesty, sound knowledge and renunciation of the consumption patterns in the foreground.

The fact that the German legal system makes it necessary for supporting associations monasteries, were offered by the precious opportunity to return to a period marked by mutual respect and a strong knowledge culture of communication in order.
For the purposes of the Buddha was neither a hierarchical system nor a democratic decision-making process, but decisions have been taken fully equals in a consensus. (The consensus means the agreement of people, mostly within a group, regarding a certain topic without covert or overt opposition.)

We, the Forest Monastery Association to invite the Sangha for his involvement in creating the Buddha Dhamma in this country a home and each of the meetings four times so as to instruct, educate and empower everyone's ability to carry out their assigned roles from the sublime. We ask the Buddhists in the home life, not just its role as a material supporter of the Sangha ready and passionate exercise, but also fulfill their function as reported in the Vinaya knowledgeable companions of monks and Bhikkhunis too.

We call on the Sangha to help us due to a profound sense of gratitude for the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and the benefits springing responsibility to avert any kind of danger or harm to the Three Jewels. That unites us all as) Kalyanamitta (good friends. Only if we treat each other in that sense, it can be their own progress and Lehrnachfolge conducive to the sublime.

S 42, 7: "There is a house father, a plowman, three fields: one field is the best, a field is mediocre, a field is scanty, karst, salt, and has poor soil. What do you think Head: When this family man who wants to sow Plowman, in which field he would make the first sowing at the best, the mediocre or poor, limestone, salt with the bad earth? "

"If, sir, this house had the Plowman sow, wants, then he would first order the best field. After he has planted there, he would order a mediocre field. After he has planted there, he might also order the sparse, limestone, salt field with poor soil. And why? It could nevertheless be cattle feed.
"Just here the best field, so are my monks and nuns. I show them the lesson that propitiated at the beginning, in the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma change dar. And why? This pause, Superintendent, with me as an island, used to protect, shelter, a refuge.

Just as the middle field, superintendent, my followers and supporters. Even where I lay out the doctrine, which propitiated at the beginning, the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma dar. change and why? This pause, Superintendent, with me as an island, used to protect, shelter, a refuge.

Just as the poor, limestone, salt field with poor soil are my andersfährtigen ascetics, Brahmins and pilgrims. Also where do I see the lesson that propitiated at the beginning, the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma change dar. And why? Even if they only understand a sentence, so long as they would redound to the welfare and well-being. "
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:59 am

Hello David, Vardali,

It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?

And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?

metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby catmoon » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:12 am

As an outsider to all this, I just see the ordination as greatly skilful means.

I do know bureaucracy, and how it tends to delay year on year, decade on decade, and at the end, change nothing. So perhaps all that has happened is justice has been served quickly. Whenever this happens, some will complain about procedure, but hey - heaven knows how much unjust delay has been avoided.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby pilgrim » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:34 am

Chris wrote:Hello David, Vardali,

It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?

And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?

metta
Chris

Ven Gavesako who stays in Muttodaya will be able to shed light on this. Is he a member of this forum?
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:02 am

Chris wrote:Hello David, Vardali,
It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?
And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?


Hi Chris,

It is signed by the "Board of Directors." I think it is saying that the Buddha wanted and wished for the four assemblies of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women; although my German is not what it used to be. Perhaps one of our other German speakers here could do a better job at deciphering it.
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