Loathesomeness of Food
- Khalil Bodhi
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Loathesomeness of Food
Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with the contemplation of the loathsome aspects of food either as a daily life practice or formal meditation. I'm interested specifically as it relates to a commitment to moderation in eating. Any feedback will be appreciated. Metta.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183
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-Dhp. 183
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- pink_trike
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
I did loathsomeness practices for many years and found them to be very beneficial at that time. However, speaking from my training and experiences as a psychotherapist, I no longer consider them to be healthy or appropriate for most Westerners except in the rare situation where the practitioner has a close consistent engaging student/teacher relationship with a Buddhist teacher who is very familiar with the Western psycho-cultural mileau and who understands that extreme practices are contraindicated and potentially harmful for a great many Westerners.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
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- tiltbillings
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Agreed. They can be quite dangerous.pink_trike wrote:I did loathsomeness practices for many years and found them to be very beneficial at that time. However, speaking from my training and experiences as a psychotherapist, I no longer consider them to be healthy or appropriate for most Westerners except in the rare situation where the practitioner has a close consistent engaging student/teacher relationship with a Buddhist teacher who is very familiar with the Western psycho-cultural mileau and who understands that extreme practices are contraindicated and potentially harmful for a great many Westerns.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Greetings,
A good middle ground, perhaps... an extract from
AN 4.159: Bhikkhuni Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Metta,
Retro.
A good middle ground, perhaps... an extract from
AN 4.159: Bhikkhuni Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
There is also the following extract from..."'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk, considering it thoughtfully, takes food — not playfully, nor for intoxication, nor for putting on bulk, nor for beautification — but simply for the survival & continuance of this body, for ending its afflictions, for the support of the holy life, [thinking,] 'Thus will I destroy old feelings [of hunger] and not create new feelings [from overeating]. I will maintain myself, be blameless, & live in comfort.' Then, at a later time, he abandons food, having relied on food. 'This body, sister, comes into being through food. And yet it is by relying on food that food is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said."
SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I expect loathsomeness of food would most benefit one who currently had strong cravings towards food, in the hope of ultimately generating dispassion towards food and other cords of sensuality.At Savatthi... "There are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"
"No, lord."
"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"
"Yes, lord."
"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- pink_trike
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Yes, but also the most harmful to people who have eating disorders that cause them to avoid food, or those who are attracted to extremes of all kinds. I probably sound like a broken record when I say this, but there was a time when these types of practices were given very selectively by teachers to those students they felt would benefit by them and withheld from those who might not benefit or who might be harmed by them. There are many practices and teachings that were never meant to be widely available to the unprepared masses regardless of their conditioning or ability.
Last edited by pink_trike on Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- retrofuturist
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Greetings Pink_trike,
Metta,
Retro.
Right. The right medicine for the right illness.pink_trike wrote:Yes, but also the most harmful to people who have eating disorders that cause them to avoid food, or those who are attracted to extremes of all kinds.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
I find it difficult to meditate on the loathsomeness of food. How do you meditate on something you do not perceive? Of all the thousands of things one can stuff into one's face, I can think of maybe three that have some unpleasant qualities, and I thoroughly believe that the unpleasantness resides in me and not the food, because many people find those same foods delightful.
This meditation hits me as a completely alien concept. Food is all composed of practically identical atoms, the perception just has to do with how they are linked up and dancing today. The mathematics of a snot molecule is just as elegant and beautiful (actually much more so) than that of purest gold. I just don't get it...
This meditation hits me as a completely alien concept. Food is all composed of practically identical atoms, the perception just has to do with how they are linked up and dancing today. The mathematics of a snot molecule is just as elegant and beautiful (actually much more so) than that of purest gold. I just don't get it...
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Dear Khalil Bodhi
Thank you for raising this interesting thread!
Generally, i agree with what Mr Pink has said. I think its important to understand that some practices are like medicine and should only be applied in certain situations under the guidance of competant and knowledgable teacher.
Having said that, my own experience has been on some vipassana retreats the awareness of the loathsomeness of food manifested naturally. Outside of retreats I just maintain my usual vipassana practice which generates enough opportunity (I believe) to observe reality without having to directly engage in loathsomeness practices.
metta
Ben
Thank you for raising this interesting thread!
Generally, i agree with what Mr Pink has said. I think its important to understand that some practices are like medicine and should only be applied in certain situations under the guidance of competant and knowledgable teacher.
Having said that, my own experience has been on some vipassana retreats the awareness of the loathsomeness of food manifested naturally. Outside of retreats I just maintain my usual vipassana practice which generates enough opportunity (I believe) to observe reality without having to directly engage in loathsomeness practices.
metta
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
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- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Oh that's a scream!Ben wrote:Dear Khalil Bodhi
Having said that, my own experience has been on some vipassana retreats the awareness of the loathsomeness of food manifested naturally.
Ben
Did you thank the chefs for their excellent instruction?
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Why is it a scream?
The 'chefs' as you put it, are volunteers who are working from the same recipe book since I first began practicing in 1985. Having worked in the kitchens at Centres, the focus on the production of meals is nutrition rather than sensory experience. Most new students rave about the food on retreat but given it is the only sensory 'entertainment' of sorts, its no wonder.
Having practiced vipassana intensely for a number of years in an environment that supports one's practice, loathsomeness of food naturally arises.
The awareness of the loathsomeness of food, is not misplaced aversion due to body-image/eating disorder issues nor is it aversion as a result of food not being to one's liking. Underscoring the awareness of the loathsomeness of food is a base of equanimity.
As with anyone who serves on retreats, I share my merits with all those who served on the course, including the servers in the kitchen.
kind regards
Ben
The 'chefs' as you put it, are volunteers who are working from the same recipe book since I first began practicing in 1985. Having worked in the kitchens at Centres, the focus on the production of meals is nutrition rather than sensory experience. Most new students rave about the food on retreat but given it is the only sensory 'entertainment' of sorts, its no wonder.
Having practiced vipassana intensely for a number of years in an environment that supports one's practice, loathsomeness of food naturally arises.
The awareness of the loathsomeness of food, is not misplaced aversion due to body-image/eating disorder issues nor is it aversion as a result of food not being to one's liking. Underscoring the awareness of the loathsomeness of food is a base of equanimity.
As with anyone who serves on retreats, I share my merits with all those who served on the course, including the servers in the kitchen.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- pink_trike
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Well said. I would add that it is also a heightened awareness (but as you point out - not an aversion) of food substance itself, and the relationship between food and bodily processes.Ben wrote: The awareness of the loathsomeness of food, is not misplaced aversion due to body-image/eating disorder issues nor is it aversion as a result of food not being to one's liking. Underscoring the awareness of the loathsomeness of food is a base of equanimity.
Does anyone know if "loathsome" is a precise translation?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
I agree that in our culture at this time trying to develop aversion to food could be unwise. An abundance of every kind of food has brought with it a host of associated eating disorders as has already been mentioned. Some of them obvious, some of them more subtle, to dwell in aversion to food per se, without a context of wider Dhammic practice, is as unskillful as any other kind of aversion. Those countries where the loathsomness of bodily functions was practiced among Dhamma practitioners, paradoxically, had a far more narrow range of choice in terms of food in both quantity and type.
It can be helpful to envisage with neutral emotion the passage of a mouthful of food, from chewing, to bolus, to digestion and eventual elimination. To see this as simply part of the process of Anicca . But we have a culture that reinforces aversion in ways not intended by the Buddha's Sangha. They did not I suspect intend a situation whereby a section of the population is phobic about food.
It can be helpful to envisage with neutral emotion the passage of a mouthful of food, from chewing, to bolus, to digestion and eventual elimination. To see this as simply part of the process of Anicca . But we have a culture that reinforces aversion in ways not intended by the Buddha's Sangha. They did not I suspect intend a situation whereby a section of the population is phobic about food.
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Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
I agree. On retreat, eating mindfully, it becomes clear how tedious all this eating, excreting, cleaning that the body requires really is. And how weird chewing and swallowing is if you really pay attention to what the tounge, teeth, etc, are doing. Not in an aversive way, it's just the way it is...Ben wrote: The awareness of the loathsomeness of food, is not misplaced aversion due to body-image/eating disorder issues nor is it aversion as a result of food not being to one's liking. Underscoring the awareness of the loathsomeness of food is a base of equanimity.
Mike
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Re: Loathesomeness of Food
It is a standard practice in this form, i.e. everyone is to do it - it is for everyone to wisely reflect why they do and do not use the requisites, for what reason, and is that reason conductive to health, to well being, to survival. is it enough, is it not enough, is it an appropriate quantity.http://www.yellowrobe.com/pali-canon/sutta-piaka/majjhima-nikaya/255-sabbasava-sutta-all-the-taints.html wrote:Taints to be abandoned by using
13. “What taints, bhikkhus, should be abandoned by using? Here a bhikkhu, reflecting wisely, uses the robe only for protection from cold, for protection from heat, for protection from contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things, and only for the purpose of concealing the private parts.
14. “Reflecting wisely, he uses almsfood neither for amusement nor for intoxication nor for the sake of physical beauty and attractiveness, but only for the endurance and continuance of this body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting the holy life, considering: ‘Thus I shall terminate old feelings without arousing new feelings and I shall be healthy and blameless and shall live in comfort.’15. “Reflecting wisely, he uses the resting place only for protection from cold, for protection from heat, for protection from contact with gadflies, mosquitoes, wind, the sun, and creeping things, and only for the purpose of warding off the perils of climate and for enjoying retreat.
16. “Reflecting wisely, he uses the medicinal requisites only for protection from arisen afflicting feelings and for the benefit of good health.
17. “While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not use the requisites thus, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who uses them thus. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by using.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Re: Loathesomeness of Food
Oh sorry. I thought you had just found an extremely polite way to say that on some retreats the food was really truly awful. Maybe I read a tone of voice into what you were saying that you never intended.Ben wrote: Why is it a scream?
Ben