Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

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Sanghamitta
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by Sanghamitta »

I think its letting the fact of that suffering really sink to the heart Christopher::: Dukkha really is one of the three characteristics of all sentient life, when that truly hits home things have a way of prioritising themselves. It cant be mended. What we CAN do is see it clearly.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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christopher:::
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by christopher::: »

Sanghamitta wrote:I think its letting the fact of that suffering really sink to the heart Christopher::: Dukkha really is one of the three characteristics of all sentient life, when that truly hits home things have a way of prioritising themselves. It cant be mended. What we CAN do is see it clearly.
Hi Sanghamitta.

Yes, i do think i've been seeing more clearly, how desire leads directly into suffering... but there is still a disconnect with pleasure.

To desire, and then refrain from feeding that desire, creates great suffering. Feeding the desire creates temporary relief, and pleasure, but also leads to continued suffering cause the desire returns.

One has to get out of this cycle. It's quite clear, yet also so powerful, like the gravitational pull of the earth, for whatever "pleasure" it is that a person most craves, and is easily available...

Chocolate, praise, video games, sexual release, success, social status, cigarettes, wine, etc...

The Web of Samsara that keeps us in chains...

:toilet:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by Sanghamitta »

As you might expect the Theravada has a slightly different take on samsara. Instead of simply being a contrast to Nibbana or in some unfeasable way the same as Nibbana, it is seen as a process. So Thanissaro Bhikku describes it as a process that we are engaged in. So samsara cannot keep us in chains. We forge the chains moment by moment .Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self. The reality is the kandhas. Ever changing, always in flux, having only the reality that we impute to the process at any given moment. So giving up chocolate may not help. What needs giving up is the sense of a seperate unchanging enjoyer.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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christopher:::
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by christopher::: »

Hi Sanghamitta. Thanks for responding.
Sanghamitta wrote:As you might expect the Theravada has a slightly different take on samsara. Instead of simply being a contrast to Nibbana or in some unfeasable way the same as Nibbana, it is seen as a process. So Thanissaro Bhikku describes it as a process that we are engaged in. So samsara cannot keep us in chains.
Yes, definitely.
We forge the chains moment by moment. Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self.
But if there is no self, how can "we" be forging the chains, "we" be doing it? You mean the desire patterns, habit patterns of mind that arise which our awareness takes to be our solid "selves" right?
The reality is the kandhas. Ever changing, always in flux, having only the reality that we impute to the process at any given moment. So giving up chocolate may not help. What needs giving up is the sense of a separate unchanging enjoyer.
Okay, i had to go look up kandhas. YES, there is in reality no "you" "I" "we"-- its the mental aggregates that create this... The mind needs to see them for what they are, ever changing, always in flux, not self. I was just listening to another talk by Goldstein btw, really brilliant, where he also describes this process very well...

2005-01-03 Desire: The Driving Force Of Samsara

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
seanpdx
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by seanpdx »

christopher::: wrote:
We forge the chains moment by moment. Whats stops that process is a clear view that it is we that are doing it. The things you mention, chocolate, praise, etc do not in themselves chain us. What does that it the illusion that there is a sold entity experiencing pleasure or pain. The root problem is our sense of a solid self.
But if there is no self, how can "we" be forging the chains, "we" be doing it? You mean the desire patterns, habit patterns of mind that arise which our awareness takes to be our solid "selves" right?
Don't focus so much on whether there is or is not a self. It's a moot point. You bind yourself. That's the important thing.

But I also disagree with the idea that the "root problem is our sense of a solid self".
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by meindzai »

seanpdx wrote:
But I also disagree with the idea that the "root problem is our sense of a solid self".
Is that different from what the Buddha says? After describing all the types of suffering (birth, death, old age, etc.) he sums it up with "In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by seanpdx »

meindzai wrote:
seanpdx wrote:
But I also disagree with the idea that the "root problem is our sense of a solid self".
Is that different from what the Buddha says? After describing all the types of suffering (birth, death, old age, etc.) he sums it up with "In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
But his summary says nothing about whether we have or don't have a sense of a solid self. Clinging is dukkha, whether we have a sense of a solid self or not.
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by meindzai »

seanpdx wrote:
meindzai wrote:
seanpdx wrote:
But I also disagree with the idea that the "root problem is our sense of a solid self".
Is that different from what the Buddha says? After describing all the types of suffering (birth, death, old age, etc.) he sums it up with "In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
But his summary says nothing about whether we have or don't have a sense of a solid self. Clinging is dukkha, whether we have a sense of a solid self or not.
But don't we cling to a self precisely becuase we see it as a solid thing?

-M
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by Sanghamitta »

If ever I come across someone without a sold sense of self, I will ask them about it. I never have. Even psychotic people have a solid sense of self, its just that their sense of self is some distance from consensual reality. And Dukkha arises when we identify any aspect of the kandhas as self or as permanent. And that is conventional reality for all who are not Enlightened. We weave our clinging into a fabrication of self. If and when we dont Dukkha does not arise. Dukkha is precisely our investment in a changing set of attributes and identifying with them.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
seanpdx
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by seanpdx »

meindzai wrote:
seanpdx wrote:
meindzai wrote: Is that different from what the Buddha says? After describing all the types of suffering (birth, death, old age, etc.) he sums it up with "In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful." - Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
But his summary says nothing about whether we have or don't have a sense of a solid self. Clinging is dukkha, whether we have a sense of a solid self or not.
But don't we cling to a self precisely becuase we see it as a solid thing?
I don't believe we cling to a self because we see it as a solid thing. We can just as easily cling to things that are not "solid things" (i.e., cling to processes that have no inherent "thing-ness" even in a "mundane" sense). We cling (upadana) because we crave (tanha). It revolves around delight (nandi).

One does not cling to the flavour of ice cream because one sees the flavour of ice cream as a "solid thing". One clings to it because one takes delight in it (or wants to).
Likewise, one does not cling to a self because one sees the self as a "solid thing". One clings to it because one takes delight in it (or wants to).

I think the whole self/not-self/no-self/etc thing has been blown waaaay out of proportion.
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by seanpdx »

Sanghamitta wrote:If ever I come across someone without a sold sense of self, I will ask them about it. I never have. Even psychotic people have a solid sense of self, its just that their sense of self is some distance from consensual reality. And Dukkha arises when we identify any aspect of the kandhas as self or as permanent. And that is conventional reality for all who are not Enlightened. We weave our clinging into a fabrication of self. If and when we dont Dukkha does not arise. Dukkha is precisely our investment in a changing set of attributes and identifying with them.
"sense of solid self", not "solid sense of self". Dukkha arises when we cling.
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christopher:::
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by christopher::: »

seanpdx wrote: Clinging is dukkha, whether we have a sense of a solid self or not.
Sanghamitta wrote: Dukkha is precisely our investment in a changing set of attributes and identifying with them.
seanpdx wrote: "sense of solid self", not "solid sense of self". Dukkha arises when we cling.
Seems like these statements all point to the same process, insight into the clinging and identification with "fill-in-the-blank" that creates dukkha, creates suffering...

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by meindzai »

seanpdx wrote: I don't believe we cling to a self because we see it as a solid thing. We can just as easily cling to things that are not "solid things" (i.e., cling to processes that have no inherent "thing-ness" even in a "mundane" sense). We cling (upadana) because we crave (tanha). It revolves around delight (nandi).
Well, you started to go down the chain of events in D.O., so let's keep going. We cling, because we crave, because we feel, etc. on down to ignorance (which loops with the tains). Ignorance means ignorance of the four noble truths. It means not seeing things as they are - that is, as transient, as notself, as unsatisfactory.
One does not cling to the flavour of ice cream because one sees the flavour of ice cream as a "solid thing". One clings to it because one takes delight in it (or wants to).
I'd argue that there's still some ignorance of the transient nature of that pleasure there. It's as if on some level we don't realize that the ice cream doesn't bring lasting happiness. The Dharma is pointing to finding a lasting happiness that doesn't depend on transient things. It seems that in order to cling to anything we have to have some perception of solidity.
Likewise, one does not cling to a self because one sees the self as a "solid thing". One clings to it because one takes delight in it (or wants to).
The conclusion from this would be that one who sees the self as it really is - anicca, anatta, dukkha, would still cling to it. Is that possible?

I think the whole self/not-self/no-self/etc thing has been blown waaaay out of proportion.
I disagree, seeing as it's right there in the first noble truth. However I might say that a) I think it often degrades into a discussion of ontology and b) it may be more important to focus on things like kamma, sila, etc. before one really can have a chance of grasping the antta teaching.

-M
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

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I was listening to another of Goldstein's talks this week, that relates to this discussion, concerning the importance of cultivating tranquility in our practice. He talked of how essential it is-- especially in regards to these issues of craving, clinging and desire.
"In one discourse the Buddha said, these two have a shared and clear knowing. Which two? Tranquility and insight. When tranquility is developed, desire is abandoned. When insight is developed, ignorance is abandoned."

Satipatthana Sutta - part 32 - Factors Of Awakening: Tranquility (2008-04-11)
As we become calmer over time we let go of desires more easily, settle back into a more tranquil state "that is free from wanting." This tranquility works in tandem with insight into anatta, understanding that the self doesn't exist, the two approaches work together, all the factors work together...

So, from this perspective, it's not any single insight or aspect of practice that is crucial, but rather the cultivation of several factors together, that leads to our awakening...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Fact ... ightenment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
seanpdx
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Re: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

Post by seanpdx »

christopher::: wrote:
seanpdx wrote: Clinging is dukkha, whether we have a sense of a solid self or not.
Sanghamitta wrote: Dukkha is precisely our investment in a changing set of attributes and identifying with them.
seanpdx wrote: "sense of solid self", not "solid sense of self". Dukkha arises when we cling.
Seems like these statements all point to the same process, insight into the clinging and identification with "fill-in-the-blank" that creates dukkha, creates suffering...

:anjali:
Not quite. I don't believe that identification with "fill-in-the-blank" is a part of it. I don't believe that clinging necessitates identification with anything. Although I could, perhaps, be misunderstanding others' understanding. It's happened before. =D
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