Mahamudra in Theravada?

[Sanghamitta]

That raises two points for me, the first is that as I understand it the difference is that that direct perception of mind in the vajrayana is said to happen after or as a result of initiatory processes by a guru. So the end result may be the same, but the proposed methodology is very different from the Theravada. Secondly there is an assumption made here that the philosophy of Nagarjuna is derived from the Pali Canon...what is the evidence for this view ? I do not know where the Tibetans derived their view of this practice, I do know that there are Theravadin teachers who point to the Vedas as the actual source of Vajrayana philosophy. After all if we really believe that there is a "shortened path" whats keeping us here ? I ask this in all sincerity and metta.

[LauraJ]

Mahamudra

Mahamudra meditation practice works to directly reveal emptiness to one's own direct experience in one's own mind. This is achieved by meditating directly on one's own mind. This is known as "taking the path of direct valid cognition"—it emphasizes directly experiencing the phenomena of one's own mind and experiencing emptiness.

As in all Buddhist schools of meditation, the basic meditative practice of Mahamudra is divided into two approaches: śamatha ("tranquility") and vipaśyanā ("insight").

The meditation manuals (in particular those of The 9th Karmapa) are among the most detailed and precise in the Buddhist literature. For tranquility practice they enumerate the stages of settling the mind and specify many common problems (eg. excitement, torpor, doubt, apathy) and practices to remedy these problems. The objects of meditation are simple objects, statues of the Buddha, the breath, mantras, complex visualizations and deities and Yidams. These objects of meditation are common throughout Tibetan Vajrayana practice.

The detailed instructions for the Insight practices are what make Mahamudra (and Dzogchen) unique.

The meditator is instructed to observe the mind at rest and then during the occurrence of thought. In some practices disturbing emotions are deliberately invoked and the meditator is directed to experience their "empty" nature. The meditator is further instructed to observe that which is looking for the nature of the mind: to observe the observer.

Lineages

Mahamudra is most well-known as a teaching within the Kagyu lineages of Tibetan Buddhism. However the Tibetan Buddhist Gelug and Sakya schools also practice Mahamudra, as does Shingon Buddhism, the other major sub-school of the Vajrayana. The Nyingma and Bön traditions practise Dzogchen, a cognate but distinct method of direct introduction to the empty nature of mind. Nyingma students may also receive supplemental training in Mahamudra, and the Palyul Nyingma lineage preserves a lineage of the "Union of Mahamudra and Ati Yoga" originated by Karma Chagme.

Wiki

[LauraJ]

That raises two points for me, the first is that as I understand it the difference is that that direct perception of mind in the vajrayana is said to happen after or as a result of initiatory processes by a guru. So the end result may be the same, but the proposed methodology is very different from the Theravada. Secondly there is an assumption made here that the philosophy of Nagarjuna is derived from the Pali Canon...what is the evidence for this view ? I do not know where the Tibetans derived their view of this practice, I do know that there are Theravadin teachers who point to the Vedas as the actual source of Vajrayana philosophy. After all if we really believe that there is a "shortened path" whats keeping us here ? I ask this in all sincerity and metta.

Hi Sanghamitta,

If it's okay, I'd rather not get into it too much about the shortened path or just what keeps us here. But if this is any help, vajrayana takes the result as its path. I really hope that makes sense and answers your question. So enlightenment is possible without the guru, we ourselves are entirely responsible for our progress or lack thereof. But in Vajrayana, we use many methods and the guru is one of them. Vajrayana is described as a snake in a hollow bamboo; a short path up or down. Hopefully we go up

Kindly,
Laura

[Sanghamitta]

In all honesty Laura taking the results as the path neither makes sense ( to me ) nor does it answer my question, but I am sure we can maintain a friendly difference of view.

[LauraJ]

In all honesty Laura taking the results as the path neither makes sense ( to me ) nor does it answer my question, but I am sure we can maintain a friendly difference of view.

Oh shoot. I'll think a bit, maybe try again
Though we may have different view I think I'm also not explaining well.

Kindly,
Laura

[Sanghamitta]

I dont think its that Laura, I think that there are real and essential differences between the Vajrayana and the Theravada, which doesnt mean we cant have mutual respect and learning.

[Aloka]

Mahamudra meditation in Vajrayana has to be practiced with teacher input and there are various stages in the development of the practice.

It's been said that it can't really be acurately described by someone who hasn't experienced it for themselves.

Mahamudra meditatation is said to include bliss, clarity, and non-conceptual awareness, and the awareness of the emptiness of experience and phenomena.

Metta,

Aloka

[mikenz66]

Mahamudra mediatation is said to include bliss, clarity, and non-conceptual awareness, and the awareness of the emptiness of experience and phenomena.

And which of those things is not in Theravada meditation? Observing mind, etc, and seeing it's empty (anatta) nature is a key part of early Buddhist meditation.

Presumably the new-fangled approaches, with their more elaborate descriptions of emptiness, claim to have more detailed and more effective instructions, which are said to require a teacher because they pose more dangers...

Of course, I'm stating this from a "Standard Theravada" framework that would view the parts of the new instructions that are consistent with the Theravada Canon to be correct, and possibly useful... Just as one would view the instructions modern Theravada teachers... I don't see how else it would be useful to discuss it on this Forum...

Metta
Mike

[jcsuperstar]

i think the only real difference is in the outside forms and the addition of a guru figure.
pretty much every (non theravada) buddhist meditation style i've personally been taught or read about are, basically, the same as those found within the theravada except for specific deity meditations.

[LauraJ]

I dont think its that Laura, I think that there are real and essential differences between the Vajrayana and the Theravada, which doesnt mean we cant have mutual respect and learning.

Hi Sanghamitta,

Thank you for your encouragement. I feel quick to assume that my explanation is lacking in any concrete way.

I agree, there are a lot of differences between our respective traditions and the more we respectfully discuss, the more a lot of folks might benefit (if people have an interest).

I think that as far as the question about just what Mahamudra is, some folks have made some good attempts at addressing it. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, all legitimate Buddhist schools of meditation will contain śamatha ("tranquility") and vipaśyanā ("insight"). Methods may vary but these are staples of Buddhist meditation (even in Vajrayana).

Your questions are good, and they're really specific. I'm far less learned in Theravada than my own school but I'm still going to give your questions some thought. Thanks for them

Kindly,
Laura

[Moggalana]

There are various types of Mahamudra: sutra Mahamudra, tantra Mahamudra, essence Mahamudra (A brief overview [pdf]). Only the last-mentioned type features "pointing out instructions" which were mentioned above. A skillful teacher might be able to point out the nature of the mind and thus lead the student to a sudden realization of enlightenment. But to receive these instructions, a student normally has to undergo a rigorous preliminary practice (Ngöndro).

In one of his dhamma talks, Ajahn Brahm mentioned a profound discussion he had with some tibetan monks. He concluded that the words, the instructions and techniques might be slightly different. The results, however, are the same. To quote him directly: "Same cake, different icing" There is also an interesting book written by Joseph Goldstein ("One Dharma") which investigates the similarities of buddhism's three main branches (Theravada, Vajrayana, Zen). It's highly recommendable

[Assaji]

Hi Tony,

...is there a similarity between Mahamudra and contemplation of Mind in Theravada?

The term 'Mahamudra' encompasses a wide range of practices.

First, there are widely different:
- Sutra Mahamudra;
- Mantra Mahamudra;
- Essence Mahamudra.

Second, various Mahamudra teachers expound it in quite idiosyncratic ways.

So, it turns out that Sutra Mahamudra, as expounded in some books and by some teachers, has strong parallels with Theravadin practice.

Metta, Dmytro

[ashtanga]

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

Tony...

[meindzai]

I think it's important to remember that vipassana and samatha are not meditation techniques, but qualities that are cultivated through meditation. Any legitmately Buddhist technique (from anapanasati to zazen) would cultivate one and/or the other to some degree. Sometimes vipassana is emphasized and sometimes samatha is emphasized. It has always sounded to me like mahamudra would fall more on the vipassana side of the scale, a lot like zen's shikantaza.

I don't think the major differences are in execution as much as context and terminology. In Theravada the goal is to see things as they are - anicca, anatta, dukkha, wheras in Mahayana they speak of seeing one's true nature, which an aspect of emptiness, which is really just anicca, anatta, dukkha.

I think if you talk to advanced practitioners of either they would describe the same experiences anyway. I've found that mahayana is just a bit more poetic about it wheras theravada describes things in terms that are more precise and technical.

[tiltbillings]

Msgs inappropriate to the purpose of the Discovering Theravada section were moved to the Dhammic free-for-all section.