What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:03 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Cittasanto
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:25 am

The Buddha taught that there is rebirth but no-one who is reborn


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:33 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:52 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:55 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Thank you for the effort you have made to explain your understanding. I realise how much time each post must take. I think I am starting to understand your interpretation. But I am doubtful about your understanding of right view as being only a moment to moment thing. I think it must include a broader and more general grasp of the truth which the teachings are trying to convey. So, I would like to return to an earlier topic - the two conditions for the arising of right view.
I now think that this is a reference to the "opening of the dhamma eye" which seems to mean becoming a stream-winner and the arising of the noble eightfold path. A typical passage runs :

"And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in that bhikkhu the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma : Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation".

This is found in many places in the suttas, usually "dhamma-cakkhu" is translated as dhamma eye. The meaning, I think, is that one sees that everything which has arisen (over many years), having arisen from a cause - is capable of ceasing if that cause is removed. It is therefore the understanding that "what has come to be" ( has been constructed by the mind) can disappear. That the "reality" which we have constructed can be eliminated. This is the gradual or sudden removing of the self-and-world construction.

So right view includes an understanding of the end result, and how to achieve it. That understanding remains, and is developed, so the "eye" remains open - it does not close again. Elsewhere, the stream-winner is said to understand dependent origination, both the arising and the cessation.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:34 am

Hi Vincent,

do you think right view arises and then lasts forever?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

chownah
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Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:02 pm


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:00 pm

Hi chownah,

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. But the true beliefs which I mentioned would be those found in enlightened individuals. Are you making a distinction between belief and knowledge ? I would be interested in a more detailed presentation of your understanding. Worldlings must know some things which are true, and their experience of the external world can not be entirely delusional - can it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:46 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Q. Do you think right view arises and then lasts for ever ?

For ever is a very long time. I think right view for the noble eightfold path includes an understanding of what the path is, what has to be done and how to do it. This understanding is the path. It is only a dim understanding at first and so needs to be developed. It is a stage in the development of wisdom.

The dhamma eye applies to the noble eightfold path. It is replaced by the wisdom eye (panna-cakkha) when the path is completed. Again, just stages in the development of wisdom.

I think that the phrase : "He knew that all that is subject to arising is subject to ceasing" means seeing the truth of the principle of impermanence (anicca) in the teachings and in ones own mind. This is universally true of the formations which have arisen in ones own mind over many years. One sees that they have arisen, one sees that they can cease. One sees how to bring about their cessation. One sees what one has to do. Their cessation is enlightenment.

This may be connected with the three characteristics ( ti lakkhana). Perhaps seeing one of these (anicca) means seeing the other two also ( dukkha, anatta).

"Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law : that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self" (A. III, 134). Nyanatiloka Dictionary page 210.

So, the opening of the dhamma eye could be seeing the universal truth of the three characteristics. This could be right view and the path. These are just my recent thoughts in this enquiry into what is right view.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:49 am

Hi Vincent,

I just asked because, since "right view" depends on other things (seeing the truth) and determines other things, it is a sankhāra, thus it is anicca. What is anicca is dukkha. Therefore it is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self. It is anatta.
All I'm trying to say is, when certain conditions are given "right view" arises, we know that the conditions aren't lasting so there have to be an end of "right view" some time. And this is what I mean when I say right view is a moment to moment thing. Arising (appearance) is manifest; disappearance is manifest; change while standing is manifest.
Right view cannot be a thing which one can own. When there are certain conditions it will arise, when the conditions cease, right view will cease. From moment to moment, regardless how long a moment in particular is.
If there is a sutta in the nikayas which contradicts what I say, the sutta is definitely right and I'm wrong.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:34 am


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:33 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

You have quoted a passage from MN 72 on several occasions, but using a poor translation. Here is the passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathagata has put away. For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'. Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.

chownah
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Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:38 pm


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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:36 am

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48

The Buddha has completed that path so for him the world has ceased. How do you interpret this passage ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Cittasanto
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:31 pm

maybe better to define the world than takle the rest of this


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1684
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:46 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

chownah
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Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:50 pm


vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:21 pm

Hi Manapa,

Yes. I should have said something about the passage I quoted. The term loka ( world, cosmos) is used in several senses. In this passage it seems to mean some internally constructed world. I agree with Acinteyyo that the most probable meaning is the five aggregates of clinging. These are the entire cosmos - all three realms of existence and all thirty-one classes of beings.

Best wishes, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

You say that the six senses still exist. Most passages talk about the six sense-spheres which are not the same thing as the six senses. The six sense-spheres cease as is stated clearly many times. Do you need quotations for this ?

Best wishes, Vincent.


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