Not believing in life after death

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LauraJ
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by LauraJ »

Bubbabuddhist wrote:I pop into the internet every three months to see if anything new is going on. Nothing ever is. Hello to all my friends! But I have been meditating heavily. So I'll say this: It's foolish to even consider questions like this until one has cultivated IMMENSE wisdom. It's a complete waste of time. Get off the internet; it's the wisest and best move I've ever made since I left my first wife and added ten years to my life!

To the end of suffering, and see you again in three months,

John R
Thanks John :bow:
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LauraJ
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by LauraJ »

Oops, as to the OP. It's my personal belief that the position one takes on rebirth shouldn't stop someone from practicing.

:anjali:
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by zooropa1844 »

"It's a waste of time (and foolish) to consider those questions before having cultivated immense wisdom"

I'm afraid it's going to be the same after having cultivated immense wisdom. Escaping from Reality can't be good at any point of the way, neither at the beginning nor at the end of the path.

But I respect people who disagree on this point.

Regards!
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings John,

:hello:
Bubbabuddhist wrote:But I have been meditating heavily. So I'll say this: It's foolish to even consider questions like this until one has cultivated IMMENSE wisdom. It's a complete waste of time. Get off the internet
But if we'd been on the Internet, we could have read the Brahmajala Sutta and know this already! ;)

Or as Venerable Nanananda says in Nibbana Sermon 9 (downloadable off the Internet :tongue: )...
The sixty-two wrong views in the Brahmajālasutta are seen to fade away before the light of wisdom coming from the nonmanifestative consciousness of the Buddha. The narrow beams of sixty-two wrong views faded in the broader flood of light that is wisdom.

Those heretics who propounded those wrong views, conceived them by dogmatically holding on to name-and-form. They got entangled in name-and-form, and those views were the product of speculative logic based on it.
Venerable Nanananda is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: But if we'd been on the Internet, we could have read the Brahmajala Sutta and know this already! ...
Is a bit (or a lot) of reading sufficient to really understand?

Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Is a bit (or a lot) of reading sufficient to really understand?
At an absolute minimum one would have to hear Dhamma (either via eye, or via ear) and relate what is heard to one's experience for verification. There were arahants for whom that was sufficient.

But we digress...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Laurens
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Laurens »

There isn't a tendancy in Buddhism to tell you what you can and can't believe, it's much more about discovering the truth for yourself. That being said, one cannot discover the truth with a closed mind, meaning you shouldn't approach any subject such as life after death with complete denial. I think its much better to remain agnostic on such matters, untill one knows for one's self.

If you are against blind faith, then having blind faith that there is no life beyond this one is just as bad as having blind faith that there is.

But to answer in short, no I don't think such a belief is needed, but an open mind certainly is.

All the best,
Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Northernbuck »

I tend to either overcomplicate issues or oversimplify issues. Remember, I'm just starting out. While I acknowledge that there is a possibility of rebirth, I cannot tell anyone that I believe in it as I do not remember the last time I died. I would rather concentrate on this moment in time. So I wouldn't worry about it. :D
But if this neutral feeling that has arisen is conditioned by the body which is impermanent, compounded and dependently arisen, how could such a neutral feeling be permanent? - SN 36.7
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by shjohnk »

An interesting thing for me is that we will never know whether there is rebirth or not, because when we are reborn (I believe we will be) we will not remember this life and that we wondered about it in this life. But for me a lot of the Buddha's teachings would seem pointless without literal rebirth. Just my opinion :thinking:

Edit: And there is that sutta about the Buddha's chief lay-supporter Anathapindika being reborn as a heavenly being and coming back to visit the Buddha... Without literal rebirth then what is this sutta? If this is 'allegorical' then why isn't that explained clearly? I don't see how literal rebirth deniers can accommodate this sutta in to their ideas.
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Paññāsikhara »

shjohnk wrote:An interesting thing for me is that we will never know whether there is rebirth or not, because when we are reborn (I believe we will be) we will not remember this life and that we wondered about it in this life.
Hi John :)

But doesn't this assume that the only way to know is to die, and that there is no continuation of memory after death? Buddhism also states that there are other ways to know, while in the present life. And also that for some, they in fact do remember their past lives while in the present life. (Check out cases from Ian Stevenson, etc.)

The former comes from very deep forms of meditation, and it also appears that the latter is maybe more common in those who kept clear and wholesome mental states in their past lives, too. Or, in other words, when our minds are defiled, then we will not know. When the mind is purified, there is the possibility. To conclude that because our minds are "presently" obscured, we will "never know", is therefore a bit problematic.
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Sanghamitta »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
shjohnk wrote:An interesting thing for me is that we will never know whether there is rebirth or not, because when we are reborn (I believe we will be) we will not remember this life and that we wondered about it in this life.
Hi John :)

But doesn't this assume that the only way to know is to die, and that there is no continuation of memory after death? Buddhism also states that there are other ways to know, while in the present life. And also that for some, they in fact do remember their past lives while in the present life. (Check out cases from Ian Stevenson, etc.)

The former comes from very deep forms of meditation, and it also appears that the latter is maybe more common in those who kept clear and wholesome mental states in their past lives, too. Or, in other words, when our minds are defiled, then we will not know. When the mind is purified, there is the possibility. To conclude that because our minds are "presently" obscured, we will "never know", is therefore a bit problematic.
Quite, It requires a huge leap of faith to deny the reality of Rebirth in Buddhism. It requires believing that generations of Buddhists over the last 2500 years have been fooling themselves or others when they say that remember their previous births, or that they are simply lying. The Buddhists who claim to remember include among them some of the wisest and most learned and compassionate people that have emerged from among the Buddhas followers, so if they are wrong or lying then we might want to ask ourselves what about Buddhism IS reliable and worthy of our attention. There are far more direct and less demanding ways to improve our psychological functioning. A Buddhism without Rebirth stretches my credulity too far.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Sanghamitta wrote:Quite, It requires a huge leap of faith to deny the reality of Rebirth in Buddhism.
Not to mention turning a blind eye to most of what is says in texts such as the Mahāsīhanāda Sutta, among many others.
Now on that occasion Sunakkhatta, son of the Licchavis, had recently left this Dhamma and Discipline. [1] He was making this statement before the Vesali assembly: "The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. [2] The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him, and when he teaches the Dhamma to anyone, it leads him when he practices it to the complete destruction of suffering.

"Sariputta, this misguided man Sunakkhatta will never infer of me according to Dhamma: 'That Blessed One is accomplished, fully enlightened, perfect in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of worlds, incomparable leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of gods and humans, enlightened, blessed.

"Again, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, the Tathagata sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions thus: 'These worthy beings who were ill-conducted in body, speech and mind, revilers of noble ones, wrong in their views, giving effect to wrong view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, [71] after death, have reappeared in a state of deprivation, in a bad destination, in perdition, even in hell; but these worthy beings who were well-conducted in body, speech and mind, not revilers of noble ones, right in their views, giving effect to right view in their actions, on the dissolution of the body, after death, have reappeared in a good destination, even in the heavenly world.' Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions.
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by pilgrim »

One can believe or not believe. But no one can deny that the Fully Enlightened One taught it as a literal truth.
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Laurens »

pilgrim wrote:One can believe or not believe. But no one can deny that the Fully Enlightened One taught it as a literal truth.
I agree, but the thing is people will insist upon denying it! I'm not sure why, it clearly says in the suttas:

"Householders, it is by reason of unrighteous conduct, conduct not in accordance with the Dhamma, that some beings here, on the breakup of the body, after death, are reborn in a state of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell."

MN 41

Nevertheless people continue trying to make out that the Buddha did not teach literal rebirth, although you can't really get more literal than the quote above.

Anyways, I'll shush before we go too far off topic.

Best wishes
Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Ceisiwr »

shjohnk wrote:An interesting thing for me is that we will never know whether there is rebirth or not, because when we are reborn (I believe we will be) we will not remember this life and that we wondered about it in this life. But for me a lot of the Buddha's teachings would seem pointless without literal rebirth. Just my opinion :thinking:

Edit: And there is that sutta about the Buddha's chief lay-supporter Anathapindika being reborn as a heavenly being and coming back to visit the Buddha... Without literal rebirth then what is this sutta? If this is 'allegorical' then why isn't that explained clearly? I don't see how literal rebirth deniers can accommodate this sutta in to their ideas.


If you want to see a response I have posted one in the great rebirth debate thread


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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