kind regardsPath consciousness of stream-entry (sotapatti-maggacitta): The entry upon the irreversible path to liberation is called stream-entry, and the citta that experiences this attainment is the path consciousness of stream-entry. The stream (sota) is the Noble Eightfold Path, with its eight factors of right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. As the current of the Ganges flows uninterrupted from the Himalayas to the ocean, so the supramundane Noble Eightfold Path flows uninterrupted from the arising of right view to the attainment of Nibbana.
Though the factors of the eightfold path may arise in the mundane wholesome cittas of virtuous worldlings, these factors are not fixed in their destination, since a worldling may change character and turn away from the Dhamma. But a noble disciple who has reached the experience of stream-entry, the path factors become fixed in destiny, and flow like a stream leading to Nibbana.
The path consciousness of stream-entry has the function of cutting off the first three fetters – ‘personality view’ or wrong views of self, doubt about the Triple Gem, and clinging to rites and ceremonines and the belief that they can lead to liberation. It further cuts off all greed, hatred and delusion strong enough to lead to a sub-human rebirth. This citta also permanently eliminates five other cittas, namely, the four cittas rooted in greed associated with wrong view, and the citta rooted in delusion associated with doubt. One who has undergone the experience of stream-entry is assured of reaching final deliverance in a maximum of seven lives, and of never being reborn in any of the woeful planes of existence.
The quote says "...has reached..." past tense. I'm thinking this says that a person has the experience of stream-entry -- and that experience is what removes all doubt, etc. This is in opposition to first obtain all the qualities of a stream-enterer, including the removal of all doubt, in order to then achieve stream-entry.But a noble disciple who has reached the experience of stream-entry, the path factors become fixed in destiny, and flow like a stream leading to Nibbana.
I am not so familiar with the relevant suttas, abhidhamma to be able to answer this off the top of my head and I am not a pali scholar so I can't give you a definitive answer. What I tend to think is that whether the removal of doubt is before or after or coincides with attaining sotapatti, the events happen so rapidly that it is - sort of - academic. I don't mean that your line of enquiry is irrelevant! If I get time tonight - I hope to do some research and uncover what I can find out for you. In the meantime, perhaps some of our more learned friends, hopefully Ajahn Dhammanando is online, and they can offer an explanation.AdvaitaJ wrote:The quote says "...has reached..." past tense. I'm thinking this says that a person has the experience of stream-entry -- and that experience is what removes all doubt, etc. This is in opposition to first obtain all the qualities of a stream-enterer, including the removal of all doubt, in order to then achieve stream-entry.
Kind regards: AdvaitaJ
Hi AdvaitaJ,AdvaitaJ wrote: Ben,
There is a portion in the quote you provided that is tantalyzingly close:The quote says "...has reached..." past tense. I'm thinking this says that a person has the experience of stream-entry -- and that experience is what removes all doubt, etc. This is in opposition to first obtain all the qualities of a stream-enterer, including the removal of all doubt, in order to then achieve stream-entry.But a noble disciple who has reached the experience of stream-entry, the path factors become fixed in destiny, and flow like a stream leading to Nibbana.
AdvaitaJ I would think they arise together. Anyway, that is how I understand it.AdvaitaJ wrote:All,
For me, the significance of the question is whether or not stream-entry is possible before having "unshakable faith" in all the teachings. I feel I have a high degree of confidence in the teachings thus far, but I also have a reasonable level of doubt in some of the teachings. The point being whether or not, according to the suttas, there is even the possibility of an "event" that would remove all doubts.
AdvaitaJ
However, the question remains whether 1) doubts preclude the possibility of stream entry or 2) if it is the event of stream entry that eradicates all doubts.
