Not believing in life after death

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Ceisiwr »

pilgrim wrote:One can believe or not believe. But no one can deny that the Fully Enlightened One taught it as a literal truth.


he did teach it but not in the way you think of it, refer to great rebirth debate thread
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Laurens
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Laurens »

clw_uk wrote:
pilgrim wrote:One can believe or not believe. But no one can deny that the Fully Enlightened One taught it as a literal truth.


he did teach it but not in the way you think of it, refer to great rebirth debate thread
Can you be sure that he taught it in the way that you think of it?
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Ceisiwr »

Laurens wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
pilgrim wrote:One can believe or not believe. But no one can deny that the Fully Enlightened One taught it as a literal truth.


he did teach it but not in the way you think of it, refer to great rebirth debate thread
Can you be sure that he taught it in the way that you think of it?


If there is one thing that is certain in the universe its that nothing is certain :jumping: . Of course i cant say im 100% sure this is exactly what Buddha meant and neither can anyone else here really (i assume). I can only go by what the evidence is via the suttas, what the monks and nuns say and what my experience and understanding says


for me (and others as well) rebirth after death as a frog just doesnt make sense in relation to what the Buddha was trying to get across. Now i dont say that he never mentioned such a thing to some people and I dont deny there is such a thing as rebirth I just dont see them in the teachings of the Buddha (4nt's/NEFP, meditation subjects etc etc)


now im probably going to get into trouble for posting this here so if you would like to discuss it more please refer to the great rebith debate thread :)


metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Sanghamitta »

Sanghamitta wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:
shjohnk wrote:An interesting thing for me is that we will never know whether there is rebirth or not, because when we are reborn (I believe we will be) we will not remember this life and that we wondered about it in this life.
Hi John :)

But doesn't this assume that the only way to know is to die, and that there is no continuation of memory after death? Buddhism also states that there are other ways to know, while in the present life. And also that for some, they in fact do remember their past lives while in the present life. (Check out cases from Ian Stevenson, etc.)

The former comes from very deep forms of meditation, and it also appears that the latter is maybe more common in those who kept clear and wholesome mental states in their past lives, too. Or, in other words, when our minds are defiled, then we will not know. When the mind is purified, there is the possibility. To conclude that because our minds are "presently" obscured, we will "never know", is therefore a bit problematic.
Quite, It requires a huge leap of faith to deny the reality of Rebirth in Buddhism. It requires believing that generations of Buddhists over the last 2500 years have been fooling themselves or others when they say that remember their previous births, or that they are simply lying. The Buddhists who claim to remember include among them some of the wisest and most learned and compassionate people that have emerged from among the Buddhas followers, so if they are wrong or lying then we might want to ask ourselves what about Buddhism IS reliable and worthy of our attention. There are far more direct and less demanding ways to improve our psychological functioning. A Buddhism without Rebirth stretches my credulity too far.
So clw uk, are those generations of Buddhists who decribe their memories of of previous births merely mistaken, or are they lying ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Ceisiwr »

ignore my last post, already answered u there




metta
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by Sanghamitta »

Well actually you havent answered it at all. You have merely stated an alternative set of beliefs of your own, You have not addressed the testimony of the those who have won through to that state of knowledge at all.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Not believing in life after death

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

In light of this...
zooropa1844 wrote:Thank you all of you for your advise and opinions (and the link). They have been really helpful. I've gathered some gems in your posts and that's enough for the moment to overcome my concern on this issue and keep on discovering the Dhamma.

Javi
... and the increasingly blurred lines between this topic and The Great Rebirth Debate, I'm going to close this topic down and redirect anyone who wishes to continue the conversation to...

The Great Rebirth Debate
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Javi.... if you come to have any further questions on the matter which you would like to discuss independently of the Great Rebirth Debate, feel free to start a new topic to do so.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Locked