What is right view?

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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:03 am

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
Here is a 300 word summary of my understanding of the Nikaya teachings, this gives the "background" of why I suggested earlier on this thread that right view could be the "view" of no-self (where "view" means "seeing the truth of").
Summary.
[At the time of the Buddha]. Everyone has a view of self-and-world. Sixty-two such views are described in the Brahmajala Sutta DN 1. Let us assume that each person has only one of these views. To simplify further, let us assume that everyone
has the "eternalist view". This view says that self and world (cosmos) are eternal. Underlying this speculative view is a more fundamental view of a self - the view "that there is an existing self" here and now. In the teachings this was originally called "atta-ditthi" - view of self. Later it was analysed into a set of twenty views called - sakaya-ditthi. The speculative view of "self and world" can only be eliminated by removing the underlying view of a self here and now. This is what enlightenment is. The enlightened individual has eliminated the view of a self. [ what is meant here is an "arahant" who has completed the noble eightfold path ] Now, the view of self is a delusion and the only way to remove it is to see the truth of no-self. The teachings say that all things should be "regarded" (seen) as impermanent (anicca), suffering (dukkha) and not-self (anatta). That is why I suggested that the primary content of right view was the "view" (seeing) of no-self.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has an enlightened individual eliminated all views ? This depends on how you understand views. Lets look at the options :
1. Someone might think that views are beliefs, and that all beliefs have been eliminated by an enlightened individual. This leads to problems. It means that you have to separate belief from knowledge. This is difficult - perhaps impossible.
2. Someone might think that views are delusions (false beliefs). This is better, but "false beliefs" implies the existence of true beliefs.
Notes:
a) Many modern people (in the west) are confused in this area.
b) A modern western philosopher might say : Almost all knowledge is belief and there is no point in trying to make a distinction between them. The distinction that we should be making is that between justified belief and unjustified belief. Where justification means the evidence which supports the belief. Knowledge is justified belief. Unjustified belief is delusion. On this understanding a person with no beliefs is impossible - he would know nothing.
c) The way in which the term ditthi (view) is used in the Nikaya's only adds to the problems. Some passages seem to imply the elimination of all views.
What are your thoughts ?

Ah, I now think I understood what you mean. In this special case when one says knowledge is justified belief because of seeing the truth, one could call it also a "view". I don't define knowledge like that, which maybe explains our differences in understanding. But if I now understood you correctly in the meaning and usage of the word "view" like explained above, I would agree. We could have made it much more easier if we first would have cleared our base using and interpreting of the word "view". Well, speech is mostly misleading.
To your point c). It maybe seems odd how the term ditthi is used in the Nikaya's. But in my opinion it is not the Nikaya's making a problem it is your kind of understanding of the word "view" like explained in your point b).
vinasp wrote:That is why I suggested that the primary content of right view was the "view" (seeing) of no-self.

It is right view seeing not-self. But don't you think you only observed one half of the story? To simplify you look at the "eternalist-view", which needs the preassumption of "there is a self". This view "there is a self" can only be eliminated by removing the underlying view of a self here and now. That's right. It means to see that all things are not the self or that "there is a self" is not true.
Then we have the "annihilation-view". It also needs the preassumption of a self. And then one says after this or that the formerly existing self doesn't exist anymore. One maybe says "then there is no self", such a statement is not true, because the preassumption "there is a self" isn't true in the first place. This is also belief in a self.
When "there is a self" is not true, the view "there is no self" doesn't have any base.
This was my last attempt to explain it.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:25 am

The Buddha taught that there is rebirth but no-one who is reborn
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:33 pm

acinteyyo wrote:no I don't have a sutta reference. And I'm sorry, but I don't really understand, I don't get your point.

That's okay and thanks for your answer. It's apparent to me we are both saying the same thing; we're in agreement that we can't say there is a self and we can't say there is no self. We can't say there is a self because we have no evidence for one. We can't say there is no self because there could be one beyond the evidence of our senses but that's purely speculative and a waste of time so we don't worry about it.

:namaste:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:52 pm

nowheat wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:no I don't have a sutta reference. And I'm sorry, but I don't really understand, I don't get your point.

That's okay and thanks for your answer. It's apparent to me we are both saying the same thing; we're in agreement that we can't say there is a self and we can't say there is no self. We can't say there is a self because we have no evidence for one. We can't say there is no self because there could be one beyond the evidence of our senses but that's purely speculative and a waste of time so we don't worry about it.

:namaste:

absolutely!
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:55 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Thank you for the effort you have made to explain your understanding. I realise how much time each post must take. I think I am starting to understand your interpretation. But I am doubtful about your understanding of right view as being only a moment to moment thing. I think it must include a broader and more general grasp of the truth which the teachings are trying to convey. So, I would like to return to an earlier topic - the two conditions for the arising of right view.
I now think that this is a reference to the "opening of the dhamma eye" which seems to mean becoming a stream-winner and the arising of the noble eightfold path. A typical passage runs :

"And while this discourse was being spoken, there arose in that bhikkhu the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma : Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation".

This is found in many places in the suttas, usually "dhamma-cakkhu" is translated as dhamma eye. The meaning, I think, is that one sees that everything which has arisen (over many years), having arisen from a cause - is capable of ceasing if that cause is removed. It is therefore the understanding that "what has come to be" ( has been constructed by the mind) can disappear. That the "reality" which we have constructed can be eliminated. This is the gradual or sudden removing of the self-and-world construction.

So right view includes an understanding of the end result, and how to achieve it. That understanding remains, and is developed, so the "eye" remains open - it does not close again. Elsewhere, the stream-winner is said to understand dependent origination, both the arising and the cessation.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:34 am

Hi Vincent,

do you think right view arises and then lasts forever?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:02 pm

2. Someone might think that views are delusions (false beliefs). This is better, but "false beliefs" implies the existence of true beliefs.

My view is that basically for a worldling their entire experience is delusional....and consequently all their beliefs are delusional as well...or if you prefer then all their beliefs are "false"....but I am not implying that there is some element of their experience or a belief that they hold that is "true".....it is all delusion.....every bit of it....worldlings have delusional views...there is no true or false about it...
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:00 pm

Hi chownah,

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. But the true beliefs which I mentioned would be those found in enlightened individuals. Are you making a distinction between belief and knowledge ? I would be interested in a more detailed presentation of your understanding. Worldlings must know some things which are true, and their experience of the external world can not be entirely delusional - can it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:46 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

Q. Do you think right view arises and then lasts for ever ?

For ever is a very long time. I think right view for the noble eightfold path includes an understanding of what the path is, what has to be done and how to do it. This understanding is the path. It is only a dim understanding at first and so needs to be developed. It is a stage in the development of wisdom.

The dhamma eye applies to the noble eightfold path. It is replaced by the wisdom eye (panna-cakkha) when the path is completed. Again, just stages in the development of wisdom.

I think that the phrase : "He knew that all that is subject to arising is subject to ceasing" means seeing the truth of the principle of impermanence (anicca) in the teachings and in ones own mind. This is universally true of the formations which have arisen in ones own mind over many years. One sees that they have arisen, one sees that they can cease. One sees how to bring about their cessation. One sees what one has to do. Their cessation is enlightenment.

This may be connected with the three characteristics ( ti lakkhana). Perhaps seeing one of these (anicca) means seeing the other two also ( dukkha, anatta).

"Whether Perfect Ones appear in the world, or whether Perfect Ones do not appear in the world, it still remains a firm condition, an immutable fact and fixed law : that all formations are impermanent, that all formations are subject to suffering, that everything is without a self" (A. III, 134). Nyanatiloka Dictionary page 210.

So, the opening of the dhamma eye could be seeing the universal truth of the three characteristics. This could be right view and the path. These are just my recent thoughts in this enquiry into what is right view.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:49 am

Hi Vincent,

I just asked because, since "right view" depends on other things (seeing the truth) and determines other things, it is a sankhāra, thus it is anicca. What is anicca is dukkha. Therefore it is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self. It is anatta.
All I'm trying to say is, when certain conditions are given "right view" arises, we know that the conditions aren't lasting so there have to be an end of "right view" some time. And this is what I mean when I say right view is a moment to moment thing. Arising (appearance) is manifest; disappearance is manifest; change while standing is manifest.
Right view cannot be a thing which one can own. When there are certain conditions it will arise, when the conditions cease, right view will cease. From moment to moment, regardless how long a moment in particular is.
If there is a sutta in the nikayas which contradicts what I say, the sutta is definitely right and I'm wrong.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby nowheat » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:34 am

acinteyyo wrote:Hi Vincent,

I just asked because, since "right view" depends on other things (seeing the truth) and determines other things, it is a sankhāra, thus it is anicca. What is anicca is dukkha. Therefore it is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self. It is anatta.
All I'm trying to say is, when certain conditions are given "right view" arises, we know that the conditions aren't lasting so there have to be an end of "right view" some time. And this is what I mean when I say right view is a moment to moment thing. Arising (appearance) is manifest; disappearance is manifest; change while standing is manifest.
Right view cannot be a thing which one can own. When there are certain conditions it will arise, when the conditions cease, right view will cease. From moment to moment, regardless how long a moment in particular is.
If there is a sutta in the nikayas which contradicts what I say, the sutta is definitely right and I'm wrong.

This makes perfect sense in the context of what the Buddha said about his raft. If right view is a full understanding of the Buddha's liberative teachings, such that once you've truly understood it, it becomes a part of the way you live you life -- and once you get there you see that it is not a "view" at all but a simple truth, the "viewness" of it vanishes; you abandon the raft. For your life, right view has then ended.

:namaste:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:33 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

You have quoted a passage from MN 72 on several occasions, but using a poor translation. Here is the passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathagata has put away. For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'. Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:38 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,



There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.

"For chownah, Vaccha, has eaten rice:...(note the past tense.)"

Please note that this sentence structure does not rule out chownah eating rice in the future just as the sentence structure you present does not rule out the Tathagata seeing these things again.....you may be right in your views but the sentence you present does not inevitably lead to the view you take here I think.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:36 am

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

You have quoted a passage from MN 72 on several occasions, but using a poor translation. Here is the passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathagata has put away. For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'. Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.

Hi Vincent,

I see it differently. It is past tense because to have fully understood all those things one must have seen everything of it. Like written in the sutta:
has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'.

The Tathagata has seen the worlds arising, its origin and cessation and therefore the Tathagata knows the true nature of the world. But the World does still exist, there is no more clinging to form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness. The Tathagata has seen dependent origination, has seen that all those things are anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

through not clinging all conceivings all excogitations, all I-making, mine making and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer exist. As long as the Tathagata "lives" the pañca khandha still exist, but upadana has already been destroyed.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:07 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48

The Buddha has completed that path so for him the world has ceased. How do you interpret this passage ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:31 pm

maybe better to define the world than takle the rest of this
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: What is right view?

Postby acinteyyo » Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:46 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48

The Buddha has completed that path so for him the world has ceased. How do you interpret this passage ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

Hi Vincent,

that is right. For the Buddha the world has ceased.
SN35.107 wrote:What is the origination of the world? In dependence on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The coming together of these three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world. (Similarly with ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

And what is the disappearance of the world? In dependence on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The coming together of these three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the disappearance of the world. (Similarly with ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

Here we can see that when craving has ceased all the things depending on craving has ceased, too. But the six senses still exist. The pañca khandha (form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousnes) still exist.
Elsewhere it is said (don't remember the sutta right now) that the pañc'upadanakhandha are what is also called "the world".
The Tathagata is liberated through not clinging, because of the cessation of craving.In other words there is no more upadana because of the cessation of tanha. The world ceased because there is no pañc'upadanakhandha anymore. All there is left is form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousnes without any upadana (pañcakhandha).

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: What is right view?

Postby chownah » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:50 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi chownah,

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. But the true beliefs which I mentioned would be those found in enlightened individuals. Are you making a distinction between belief and knowledge ? I would be interested in a more detailed presentation of your understanding. Worldlings must know some things which are true, and their experience of the external world can not be entirely delusional - can it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

Vinasp,
I don't think that enlightened individuals have beliefs nor do I believe that they have knowledge in the sense of what worldlings call knowledge.....but this is strictly speculation on my part in that nibhanna is beyond words and undescribable so however we want to describe it the only thing that is certain is that we are wrong.
chownah

P.S. You still seem to be discussing from a standpoint that there is only one kind of right view.....I suggest doing some internet research and finding out about the two kinds...one with effluents and one without effluents (as defined by the Buddha)...I think you will see that they are two completely different concepts and deal with two entirely different sets of things.
From Wings to Awakening web site:

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."

MN117 (as translated by Thanisarro Bikkhu)

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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:21 pm

Hi Manapa,

Yes. I should have said something about the passage I quoted. The term loka ( world, cosmos) is used in several senses. In this passage it seems to mean some internally constructed world. I agree with Acinteyyo that the most probable meaning is the five aggregates of clinging. These are the entire cosmos - all three realms of existence and all thirty-one classes of beings.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Postby vinasp » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Hi acinteyyo,

You say that the six senses still exist. Most passages talk about the six sense-spheres which are not the same thing as the six senses. The six sense-spheres cease as is stated clearly many times. Do you need quotations for this ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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