What if everyone were Buddhist?
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Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
If Buddhism is the truth about reality then everyone is already Buddhist!
When the mind only minds the mind,
reality stands alone and shines,
this is wisdom in action,
its expression is compassion...
reality stands alone and shines,
this is wisdom in action,
its expression is compassion...
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
PaulD wrote:why weren't they necessary though before the sangha grew?meindzai wrote:I didn't say they weren't necessary. I said they weren't necessary until the sangha grew.PaulD wrote: where did these vinaya rules come from then if they weren't necessary? Didn't the Buddha put these rules down for the monks?
-M
Thanissaro Bhikku - The Buddhist Monastic Code - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#intro1In the early years of the Buddha's career, the texts tell us, there was no need to formulate monastic disciplinary rules. All of the bhikkhus in his following — the Community of bhikkhunīs had not yet been started — were men of high personal attainments who had succeeded in subduing many or all of their mental defilements. They knew his teachings well and behaved accordingly. The Canon tells of how Ven. Sāriputta, one of the Buddha's foremost disciples, asked the Buddha at an early date to formulate a Pāṭimokkha, or code of rules, to ensure that the celibate life the Buddha had founded would last long, just as a thread holding together a floral arrangement ensures that the flowers are not scattered by the wind. The Buddha replied that the time for such a code had not yet come, for even the most backward of the men in the Community at that time had already had their first glimpse of the goal. Only when mental effluents (āsava) made themselves felt in the Community would there be a need for a Pāṭimokkha.
As time passed, the conditions that provided an opening for the effluents within the Community eventually began to appear. The Bhaddāli Sutta (MN 65) presents the Buddha at a later point in his career listing these conditions as five:
Ven. Bhaddāli: "Why is it, venerable sir, that there used to be fewer training rules and more bhikkhus established in the knowledge of Awakening? And why is it that there are now more training rules and fewer bhikkhus established in the knowledge of Awakening?" [Bhaddāli, who has been unwilling to abide by the training rules, seems to be suggesting that the rise in the number of training rules is itself the cause for fewer bhikkhus' attaining Awakening. The Buddha, however, offers a different explanation.]
The Buddha: "So it is, Bhaddāli. When beings have begun to degenerate and the true Dhamma has begun to disappear, there are more training rules and fewer bhikkhus established in the knowledge of Awakening. The Teacher does not lay down a training rule for his disciples as long as there are no cases where the conditions that offer a foothold for the effluents have arisen in the Community. But when there are cases where the conditions that offer a foothold for the effluents have arisen in the Community, then the Teacher lays down a training rule for his disciples so as to counteract those very conditions.
"There are no cases where the conditions that offer a foothold for the effluents have arisen in the Community as long as the Community has not become large. But when the Community has become large, then there are cases where the conditions that offer a foothold for the effluents arise in the Community, and the Teacher then lays down a training rule for his disciples so as to counteract those very conditions... When the Community possesses great material gains... great status... a large body of learning... When the Community is long-standing, then there are cases where the conditions that offer a foothold for the effluents arise in the Community, and the Teacher then lays down a training rule for his disciples so as to counteract those very conditions."
Thus the rules themselves were not the cause for degeneracy in the Community, and the conditions that provided a foothold for the effluents were not themselves effluents. Rather, the growing complexity of the Community provided the opportunity for bhikkhus to act on the basis of their defilements in a growing variety of ways, and the rules — although they could not prevent any of the five conditions — had to become correspondingly complex to counteract the opportunities those conditions provided for unenlightened behavior.
Now - this was still in the time of the Buddha. So you can imagine how much worse the conditions are now, and how much more so as the Sangha grows into the millions.
-M
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
So.....would there be alot more malaria because no one would kill mosquitos?
chownah
chownah
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
No. They'd know the type of mosquitos which infect humans with malaria, and they'd take skilful action in remaining indoors at dawn and dusk and use strong repellents for those parts of the body not covered by clothes. You know .... like we do now.
metta
Chris
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
My wife is a 'Pure Land' Buddhist. They DON'T condone killing, in fact all pure land monastics are strict vegetarians and so are many lay-people. They take the sanctity of life extremely seriously. According to 'pure land' teaching, anyone who makes a SINCERE vow to be reborn in Buddha Amitabha's pure land will achieve this, but to achieve the necessary state of mind to make such a sincere vow cultivation of Sila and wisdom is very important.Annabel wrote:I don't know much about Pure land, but I have a hard time with this notion. A link or quote, please?
Where are we with Buddhism anyhow, if we have all sorts of schools, and they contradict each other?
We have to agree on some basic stuff and the first precept seems crucial to me...
I have listened to a lot of 'Pure Land' talks that my wife has downloaded and believe me their dharma teachers know their 'basic' Buddhism. including the 4NT, eightfold path etc. There is not as much difference between traditions as many people seem to make out. They are just different paths leading to the same goal.
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
Chris wrote, "No. They'd know the type of mosquitos which infect humans with malaria, and they'd take skilful action in remaining indoors at dawn and dusk and use strong repellents for those parts of the body not covered by clothes. You know .... like we do now.
Chris,
Unfortunately we don't do these things now and that's why a huge (a million?) people a year die from malaria. I don't think that being Buddhist makes one smarter...or are you coming from a place where everyone is an arahant?....this thread is sort of poorly defined now as to what is being discussed.......originally it was what if everyone was Buddhist of one sort or another....but that can already be seen by looking at contemporary Thailand where for all practical purposes everyone is already a Buddhist of one sort or another...as I described in a previous post. So, what are these people you envision who will populate the planet and who will be so wise and so skillful as to avoid malaria?.....Buddhists of any sort (like the ones in Thailand who do get malaria) or is it those who earnestly try to follow the five lay precepts (like many/most of the Buddhists in Thailand who do get malaria) or is it stream entrants (are they going to be wise enough to eradicate behavior with planet wide behavior changes) or is it those even more advanced (like arahants I guess)?
chownah
All,
If we were all Buddhists then if someone were unlucky enough to get an intestinal parasite then it would be a life long commitment I guess because the only way we have now to get rid of them violates the precept on killing I guess.
chownah
Chris,
Unfortunately we don't do these things now and that's why a huge (a million?) people a year die from malaria. I don't think that being Buddhist makes one smarter...or are you coming from a place where everyone is an arahant?....this thread is sort of poorly defined now as to what is being discussed.......originally it was what if everyone was Buddhist of one sort or another....but that can already be seen by looking at contemporary Thailand where for all practical purposes everyone is already a Buddhist of one sort or another...as I described in a previous post. So, what are these people you envision who will populate the planet and who will be so wise and so skillful as to avoid malaria?.....Buddhists of any sort (like the ones in Thailand who do get malaria) or is it those who earnestly try to follow the five lay precepts (like many/most of the Buddhists in Thailand who do get malaria) or is it stream entrants (are they going to be wise enough to eradicate behavior with planet wide behavior changes) or is it those even more advanced (like arahants I guess)?
chownah
All,
If we were all Buddhists then if someone were unlucky enough to get an intestinal parasite then it would be a life long commitment I guess because the only way we have now to get rid of them violates the precept on killing I guess.
chownah
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Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
The OP was clarified to mean Buddhists who practice and keep the 5 precepts.chownah wrote: If we were all Buddhists then if someone were unlucky enough to get an intestinal parasite then it would be a life long commitment I guess because the only way we have now to get rid of them violates the precept on killing I guess.
chownah
Medicine is allowed, so I don't think taking some anti-biotics or other medicine, even if it means killing the parasite, is any violation.
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
Interesting question. I am guessing you meant a world in which everyone would be practicing well and following the teachings closely rather than a world where everyone identified themselves as being Buddhist (because the two would be very different).
If everyone was practicing Buddhism then its easy to think that it would be some kind of paradise, but I don't think it would be, for one whether or not everyone is a Buddhist there would still be dukkha and also in our practice it is often the irritating un-Buddhist people that help to teach us patience, kindness and compassion.
In a completely Buddhist world we would be free from a lot of the challenges that life throws at us on a daily basis, and although this might be good in many respects, its often these challenges and obstacles that teach us the most dhamma.
Its certainly the case with me that in order to truely learn something I have to have the lesson firmly hit home by some kind of challenge or obstacle.
Remember that the Buddha said a human birth is the most conductive to attaining liberation because it has the right balance of suffering and happiness. I think maybe an entirely Buddhist world would tip that balance too far and make it harder to practice.
Best wishes,
Laurens
If everyone was practicing Buddhism then its easy to think that it would be some kind of paradise, but I don't think it would be, for one whether or not everyone is a Buddhist there would still be dukkha and also in our practice it is often the irritating un-Buddhist people that help to teach us patience, kindness and compassion.
In a completely Buddhist world we would be free from a lot of the challenges that life throws at us on a daily basis, and although this might be good in many respects, its often these challenges and obstacles that teach us the most dhamma.
Its certainly the case with me that in order to truely learn something I have to have the lesson firmly hit home by some kind of challenge or obstacle.
Remember that the Buddha said a human birth is the most conductive to attaining liberation because it has the right balance of suffering and happiness. I think maybe an entirely Buddhist world would tip that balance too far and make it harder to practice.
Best wishes,
Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
I don't know if killing parasites using medicine (or any other means for that matter) would be allowed in this world of everyone keeping the five precepts....I"m assuming that "keeping" them means completely and unerringly following them.....are we to assume that there will be no children in this world...or will the children keep the five precepts from birth and through adolescence too? Children using only right speech....hard to imagine.
Also, I guess there would be no use of agricultural pestsicides....I'm all for that since I'm an organic farmer!!!! One question though....would artificial fertilizers be allowed?.....they do kill alot of soil organisms but then using a chemical fertilizer is not done with the intent of killing anything; the intention being to enhance the growth of crops.
chownah
Also, I guess there would be no use of agricultural pestsicides....I'm all for that since I'm an organic farmer!!!! One question though....would artificial fertilizers be allowed?.....they do kill alot of soil organisms but then using a chemical fertilizer is not done with the intent of killing anything; the intention being to enhance the growth of crops.
chownah
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
I don't think much would change if everyone was Buddhist. Even if they all followed the 5 precepts, some people would still do wrong things and break the precepts without realizing it. Others would be caught up in their own delusions and believe they were doing right when they were really doing wrong. History has many examples of this. Many people have done terrible things in the name of doing what they thought was good.
Now, if everyone was a Sotapanna or Arahant, then I think the world would be much a much better place.
Now, if everyone was a Sotapanna or Arahant, then I think the world would be much a much better place.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
I guess prostitution would still happen as it is not ruled out by the five precepts....also gambling....
People would still drink milk and eat eggs I guess...so there would be alot of old chickens and cows to take care of since we couldn't eat them until they died of natural causes....India has alot of old cows wandering around so this is probably what it would be like world wide....cows everywhere!!!! Here in Thailand the afterbirth from cows and water buffalo is commonly cooked in a stew and eaten and this envolves no killing so I guess this could continue.
Would there be a government?. If so then it would have to be funded by donation since I guess the gov't could only take what was freely given. I think that would at least keep the gov't down to a more reasonable size although do you think that sewers and roads and all that other infrastructure stuff could be funded by donation?
People could still be greedy couldn't they?
chownah
People would still drink milk and eat eggs I guess...so there would be alot of old chickens and cows to take care of since we couldn't eat them until they died of natural causes....India has alot of old cows wandering around so this is probably what it would be like world wide....cows everywhere!!!! Here in Thailand the afterbirth from cows and water buffalo is commonly cooked in a stew and eaten and this envolves no killing so I guess this could continue.
Would there be a government?. If so then it would have to be funded by donation since I guess the gov't could only take what was freely given. I think that would at least keep the gov't down to a more reasonable size although do you think that sewers and roads and all that other infrastructure stuff could be funded by donation?
People could still be greedy couldn't they?
chownah
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
What's the third precept?chownah wrote:I guess prostitution would still happen as it is not ruled out by the five precepts....
If everyone were actually practicing rather than merely Buddhist in name only, and since selfishness is to be abandoned and selflessness is to be cultivated, no.chownah wrote: People could still be greedy couldn't they?
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
Even when people are sincerely trying, though, these things don't happen overnight. Who here would claim to have abandoned all selfishness?chownah wrote:I guess prostitution would still happen as it is not ruled out by the five precepts....
If everyone were actually practicing rather than merely Buddhist in name only, and since selfishness is to be abandoned and selflessness is to be cultivated, no.
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
Oh, I thoroughly behave in shameful ways, sure. But I thought this whole question, and the Path as well, is about ideal.Lazy_eye wrote:Even when people are sincerely trying, though, these things don't happen overnight. Who here would claim to have abandoned all selfishness?
Re: What if everyone were Buddhist?
Enkidu,enkidu wrote:What's the third precept?chownah wrote:I guess prostitution would still happen as it is not ruled out by the five precepts....
If everyone were actually practicing rather than merely Buddhist in name only, and since selfishness is to be abandoned and selflessness is to be cultivated, no.chownah wrote: People could still be greedy couldn't they?
I give up....what *is* the third precept? If its the one about sex then it does not as far as I know rule out prostitution...if you can show me a Canonical reference to support it ruling out prostitution I would really appreciate seeing it.
It is my understanding that this thread is discussing what if all people on earth followed the five precepts without fail....and I am not aware that there is a precept that rules out greed....if there is one then can you show me some Canonical reference that rules out greed? Unless I am shown some evidence I will continue to accept that people can indeed be greeedy while following the five precepts without fail.
chownah