Confidence and Stream-Entry: Which comes first?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Confidence and Stream-Entry: Which comes first?

Post by tiltbillings »

AdvaitaJ wrote:

Tilt,

That would certainly get my vote since it suggests that stream-entry is possible even with preceding doubt.
If confidence is characteristic stream-entry, it is a result of the awakening. In SN ii 70; DB i 578 "confidence in the Buddha's teaching" is given as "factor of stream-entry." A sotapanna is defined by possessing "confirmed confidence" in the Dhamma - that is to say, it is a characteristic of being a stream-winner.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Vardali
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Re: Confidence and Stream-Entry: Which comes first?

Post by Vardali »

IanAnd wrote:... Believe me, if anything like that ever occurs with you, you won't need anyone else's opinion on the matter. You will KNOW it to the depth of your being!
Agreed. This is the nature of realization (or the process towards it).

Other than that, I cannot confirm your statements from my experience.

:juggling:
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IanAnd
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Re: Confidence and Stream-Entry: Which comes first?

Post by IanAnd »

Vardali wrote:
IanAnd wrote:... Believe me, if anything like that ever occurs with you, you won't need anyone else's opinion on the matter. You will KNOW it to the depth of your being!
Agreed. This is the nature of realization (or the process towards it).
The realization I was referring to was the ending of IGNORANCE about a subject. That was the point of my recounting the experience, which, by the way, was not a meditative experience. It was an experience of "clear comprehension" or "direct knowing" which took place in normal consciousness. Apparently, some people may have been confused by the account.
...but in the end, the experience is just more stuff to let go.
I would agree, for people who have a tendency to cling to meditative phenomena (mental formations). But this was not a meditative phenomenon, and was clearly not the case with me.

All I did was just recognize it for the profound moment that it was. And then recounted it here for others to benefit from, if indeed anyone benefited at all. It only occurred once in that kind of clarity. That, indeed, was the only time it needed to occur. Once you know that you know...there's no further need to re-experience. And there is nothing to cling to. There is only the profound effect of the memory of the event. I was only endeavoring to point out that such things can and do occur. That is all. (Not that they necessarily need to occur in order for someone to verify, in the privacy of his own mind, a certain attainment.)
AdvaitaJ wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
AdvaitaJ wrote:The point being whether or not, according to the suttas, there is even the possibility of an "event" that would remove all doubts.
I would think they arise together. Anyway, that is how I understand it.
Tilt,

That would certainly get my vote since it suggests that stream-entry is possible even with preceding doubt.
Most assuredly it is. Doubt is removed when ignorance is removed. And that is an individual process, which can vary according to the individual.
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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tiltbillings
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Re: Confidence and Stream-Entry: Which comes first?

Post by tiltbillings »

IanAnd wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:...but in the end, the experience is just more stuff to let go.
I would agree, for people who have a tendency to cling to meditative phenomena (mental formations). But this was not a meditative phenomenon, and was clearly not the case with me.

All I did was just recognize it for the profound moment that it was. And then recounted it here for others to benefit from, if indeed anyone benefited at all. It only occurred once in that kind of clarity. That, indeed, was the only time it needed to occur. Once you know that you know...there's no further need to re-experience. And there is nothing to cling to. There is only the profound effect of the memory of the event. I was only endeavoring to point out that such things can and do occur. That is all. (Not that they necessarily need to occur in order for someone to verify, in the privacy of his own mind, a certain attainment.)


They are interesting things, experiences like these. A couple of things: You have put yourself out there with this, which not an easy thing to do, and as a result, what you have described is open to discussion, which not an easy thing to deal with sometimes, but how to understand and what to do with such experiences is an interesting and important topic.

I would say that my above comment is hardly limited to meditative experience.

Ian:“I was only endeavoring to point out that such things can and do occur.” Indeed. Such things do occur (in a very startling wide variety), but we can ask after having such an experience, what was it that actually occurred? And is confidence/certitude always a marker that whatever it was, is what we “know” it is?
. . . someone to verify, in the privacy of his own mind, a certain attainment.)
As I would tell my fundamentalist Christian friends, for the devil (Mara) investment in doubt pays small dividends; rather, it is in unquestioning confidence, absolute certitude that has the most profound yield. As for the privacy of one’s own mind, not always the safest bet, which is why teachers are a great help, and why not taking these things too seriously, by learning to step back a bit from them, is probably the safest bet, no matter how profoundly moving they might be and no matter how many questions are answered and even if they are “genuine” Buddhist experiences.

Be all that as it may, thank you for what you have shared. As for what I have written, take from it what you may or nothing at all. No harm was intended. And good luck.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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