What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Post by nowheat »

acinteyyo wrote:Hi Vincent,

I just asked because, since "right view" depends on other things (seeing the truth) and determines other things, it is a sankhāra, thus it is anicca. What is anicca is dukkha. Therefore it is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self. It is anatta.
All I'm trying to say is, when certain conditions are given "right view" arises, we know that the conditions aren't lasting so there have to be an end of "right view" some time. And this is what I mean when I say right view is a moment to moment thing. Arising (appearance) is manifest; disappearance is manifest; change while standing is manifest.
Right view cannot be a thing which one can own. When there are certain conditions it will arise, when the conditions cease, right view will cease. From moment to moment, regardless how long a moment in particular is.
If there is a sutta in the nikayas which contradicts what I say, the sutta is definitely right and I'm wrong.
This makes perfect sense in the context of what the Buddha said about his raft. If right view is a full understanding of the Buddha's liberative teachings, such that once you've truly understood it, it becomes a part of the way you live you life -- and once you get there you see that it is not a "view" at all but a simple truth, the "viewness" of it vanishes; you abandon the raft. For your life, right view has then ended.

:namaste:
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

You have quoted a passage from MN 72 on several occasions, but using a poor translation. Here is the passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathagata has put away. For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'. Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Post by chownah »

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,



There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
"For chownah, Vaccha, has eaten rice:...(note the past tense.)"

Please note that this sentence structure does not rule out chownah eating rice in the future just as the sentence structure you present does not rule out the Tathagata seeing these things again.....you may be right in your views but the sentence you present does not inevitably lead to the view you take here I think.

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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

You have quoted a passage from MN 72 on several occasions, but using a poor translation. Here is the passage from Bhikkhu Bodhi :

"Vaccha, 'speculative view' is something that the Tathagata has put away. For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'. Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".

There is a lot to discuss here, but I would like first of all, to draw your attention to the words : "For the Tathagata, Vaccha, has seen this : ..." note the past tense. The Tathagata has understood form, its arising and its cessation. He has seen (understood) the arising of form, and he has seen (realised) the cessation of form. He has achieved the cessation of form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. All these ceased on the night of his awakening - they no longer exist for him.

Best wishes, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,

I see it differently. It is past tense because to have fully understood all those things one must have seen everything of it. Like written in the sutta:
has seen this : 'Such is material form, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance ; such is perception ...... ; such are formations .... ; such is consciousness ....such its disappearance'.
The Tathagata has seen the worlds arising, its origin and cessation and therefore the Tathagata knows the true nature of the world. But the World does still exist, there is no more clinging to form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness. The Tathagata has seen dependent origination, has seen that all those things are anicca, dukkha and anatta.
Therefore, I say, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of all conceivings, all excogitations, all I-making, mine-making, and the underlying tendency to conceit, the Tathagata is liberated through not clinging".
through not clinging all conceivings all excogitations, all I-making, mine making and the underlying tendency to conceit no longer exist. As long as the Tathagata "lives" the pañca khandha still exist, but upadana has already been destroyed.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48

The Buddha has completed that path so for him the world has ceased. How do you interpret this passage ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: What is right view?

Post by Cittasanto »

maybe better to define the world than takle the rest of this
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

"That end of the world wherein one is not born, does not grow old or die, pass away or reappear, that I declare, is impossible to be known, seen or reached by travelling. But, friend, I do not declare that one can make an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world. Friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its perceptions and consciousness, is the world, the world's arising, the world's cessation and the path leading to the world's cessation." A.N. II. 48

The Buddha has completed that path so for him the world has ceased. How do you interpret this passage ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,

that is right. For the Buddha the world has ceased.
SN35.107 wrote:What is the origination of the world? In dependence on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The coming together of these three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world. (Similarly with ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

And what is the disappearance of the world? In dependence on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The coming together of these three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the disappearance of the world. (Similarly with ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)
Here we can see that when craving has ceased all the things depending on craving has ceased, too. But the six senses still exist. The pañca khandha (form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousnes) still exist.
Elsewhere it is said (don't remember the sutta right now) that the pañc'upadanakhandha are what is also called "the world".
The Tathagata is liberated through not clinging, because of the cessation of craving.In other words there is no more upadana because of the cessation of tanha. The world ceased because there is no pañc'upadanakhandha anymore. All there is left is form, feeling, perception, formations, consciousnes without any upadana (pañcakhandha).

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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Re: What is right view?

Post by chownah »

vinasp wrote:Hi chownah,

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. But the true beliefs which I mentioned would be those found in enlightened individuals. Are you making a distinction between belief and knowledge ? I would be interested in a more detailed presentation of your understanding. Worldlings must know some things which are true, and their experience of the external world can not be entirely delusional - can it ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
Vinasp,
I don't think that enlightened individuals have beliefs nor do I believe that they have knowledge in the sense of what worldlings call knowledge.....but this is strictly speculation on my part in that nibhanna is beyond words and undescribable so however we want to describe it the only thing that is certain is that we are wrong.
chownah

P.S. You still seem to be discussing from a standpoint that there is only one kind of right view.....I suggest doing some internet research and finding out about the two kinds...one with effluents and one without effluents (as defined by the Buddha)...I think you will see that they are two completely different concepts and deal with two entirely different sets of things.
From Wings to Awakening web site:

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."

MN117 (as translated by Thanisarro Bikkhu)

chownah
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi Manapa,

Yes. I should have said something about the passage I quoted. The term loka ( world, cosmos) is used in several senses. In this passage it seems to mean some internally constructed world. I agree with Acinteyyo that the most probable meaning is the five aggregates of clinging. These are the entire cosmos - all three realms of existence and all thirty-one classes of beings.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

You say that the six senses still exist. Most passages talk about the six sense-spheres which are not the same thing as the six senses. The six sense-spheres cease as is stated clearly many times. Do you need quotations for this ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Manapa,

Yes. I should have said something about the passage I quoted. The term loka ( world, cosmos) is used in several senses. In this passage it seems to mean some internally constructed world. I agree with Acinteyyo that the most probable meaning is the five aggregates of clinging. These are the entire cosmos - all three realms of existence and all thirty-one classes of beings.

Best wishes, Vincent.
I know
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:Hi acinteyyo,

You say that the six senses still exist. Most passages talk about the six sense-spheres which are not the same thing as the six senses. The six sense-spheres cease as is stated clearly many times. Do you need quotations for this ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,

please provide a suttareference.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: What is right view?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

Where does it say that the sense bases (I presume is that you mean ayatana when you say "spheres") vanish for an arahant (before parinibbana)?

Mike
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here are some quotations on the six sense bases, selected to show that they cease at enlightenment - in this life.

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards the eye of the past ; he does not seek delight in the eye of the
future ; and he is practising for revulsion towards the eye of the present, for its fading away and cessation".
"The ear is impermanent ... The nose ... The tongue ... The body ... The mind is impermanent ...for its fading away and cessation". Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, 35.7 page 1136.

[ Although 35.7 speaks of "the eye" it is not the actual eye which is meant, but the eye-sphere or base - the actual eye remains after enlightenment ]

"Venerable sir, it is said, 'Mara, Mara'. In what way, venerable sir, might there be Mara or the description of Mara ?"
"Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye consciousness, there Mara exists or the description of Mara. ( repeat for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind).
"Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there Mara does not exist nor any description of Mara". ( repeat for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind ).

Connected Discourses, 35.65 page 1152.

The next sutta 35.66 is identical except Mara is replaced by "a being".
The following sutta 35.67 replaces Mara with "suffering".
The following sutta 35.68 replaces Mara with "the world".

MN 9.49 "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base, in that way he is one of right view ... and has arrived
at this true Dhamma".

Best wishes, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: What is right view?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

Yes, I'm familiar with those quotes, but I do not interpret them as the six-fold base ceasing for an Arahant (until the body expires).
... a noble disciple understands ... the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base...
It doesn't say: "For a noble disciple the six-fold base has ceased".

Metta
Mike
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