Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

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Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby tellyontellyon » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:57 am

Sorry to start a new thread but I wanted to ask a specific questions?

* Regardless of how the ordination came about, are the ordained nuns to be regarded as Bhukkinis in the Thai lineage?

(I'm hoping 'lineage' is the right word, I come from a Tibetan lineage myself and so am not au fait with Therevadin lingo. Anyway, I hope you understand what I mean)
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:45 pm

I don't think so, I think they are considered part of the Sri Lankan liniage as I believe that is the line the peceptor comes from, I am not sure 100%, although it would be the line the preceptor is from not the line the witnesses are.
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:43 am

well the sri lankan theravada lineage comes from thailand so there is still a thai connection...

but as regards the idea of a theravada lineage,all monks are apart of the theravada lineage with the exception of some monks who have ghettoized themself into smaller groups they think are somehow more pure than the mainstream Theravada. you're really not going to find lineages comparable to how there are different schools of Tibetan Buddhism or zen etc. a Theravada monk is pretty much free to just go from temple to temple learning whatever is taught there whether it be a Burmese style, Thai style etc.

the problem here isnt what lineage they have been ordained into but whether or not theravada monks will recognize them as theravada nuns. some have said they are not nuns at all, others have said they are mahayana nuns, which is a misnomer as there is no such thing as a mahayana monk or nun, as there is no mahayana vinaya
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby tellyontellyon » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:22 am

So how are things looking in terms of their ordination being accepted by Therevada monks?
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby wtp » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:55 am

Is lineage a Vinaya term or concept? I don't believe so.

If not then the idea that a monk or nun is following a particular lineage because of who their preceptor was is probably invalid. Talking about schools of Theravada Buddhism makes more sense to me rather than lineage. I would like to think, for example that Ajahn Chah would not have condoned some monk claiming to be of his lineage, and hence somehow authoritative, just because they were ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who he happened to teach for a few years. On the other hand if they studied with and learnt from the teachings of Ajahn Chah and his disciples (and even more importantly practiced them), regardless of who their preceptor was, I suspect he would be happy with such a monk claiming affiliation with his school .

In my view this notion of authority coming from supposed lineage affiliation really is contrary to the word and spirit of the suttas, and I suspect this is true of the Vinaya as well but I am far less knowledgeable of the latter and am happy to be corrected.
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:07 am

tellyontellyon wrote:So how are things looking in terms of their ordination being accepted by Therevada monks?

we're probably gonna have to give it awhile.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby cooran » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:14 am

wtp wrote:Is lineage a Vinaya term or concept? I don't believe so.

If not then the idea that a monk or nun is following a particular lineage because of who their preceptor was is probably invalid. Talking about schools of Theravada Buddhism makes more sense to me rather than lineage. I would like to think, for example that Ajahn Chah would not have condoned some monk claiming to be of his lineage, and hence somehow authoritative, just because they were ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who he happened to teach for a few years. On the other hand if they studied with and learnt from the teachings of Ajahn Chah and his disciples (and even more importantly practiced them), regardless of who their preceptor was, I suspect he would be happy with such a monk claiming affiliation with his school .

In my view this notion of authority coming from supposed lineage affiliation really is contrary to the word and spirit of the suttas, and I suspect this is true of the Vinaya as well but I am far less knowledgeable of the latter and am happy to be corrected.


Hello wtp, all,

You may find this interesting:

Lineage
http://www.vimutti.org.nz/lineage.php

metta
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:33 am

Interestingly, if "lineage" is defined in terms of preceptors, then among the Ajahn Chah students there isn't much. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahanikaya sect (whereas Ajahn Mun was Dhammayut). Many of the prominent Western students, including Ajahns Sumedho, Passano, Tiradhammo, and Brahm, were not ordained by Ajahn Chah.

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Last edited by mikenz66 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:41 am

mikenz66 wrote:. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahasanghika sect (

Mahanikaya.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahasanghika sect (

Mahanikaya.

Hmm, Thanks. Should have used Wikipedia, rather than the less-than-reliable Encylopedia Brittanica:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... =ref422793

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:01 am

Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:57 pm

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.

Good point. In Thailand it seems to be normal to take orders from one's preceptor for 5 years, then one is free to go one's own way, or seek other teachers. However, sometimes this can happen sooner if the preceptor doesn't take much interest in the training. So, for example, as he tells it, Ven Tiradhammo wound up with Ajahn Chah after a couple of years of having no real instruction.

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby cooran » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:05 pm

Hello Mike,

Just a snippet of news ~ Ajahn Tiradhammo is stopping off at Dhammagiri, Queensland, on 13th December, leaving on the 15th for Wellington ... on the way back home from WAM. He is giving a public talk at Dhammagiri on 13th December at 6.00 p.m.

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:15 pm

Thanks Chris,
Chris wrote:Just a snippet of news ~ Ajahn Tiradhammo is stopping off at Dhammagiri, Queensland, on 13th December, leaving on the 15th for Wellington ... on the way back home from WAM. He is giving a public talk at Dhammagiri on 13th December at 6.00 p.m.

Yes, I recall he said he was going to Australia in December when he was here a few weeks ago. I'm pleased that you will get to meet him (or meet him again...).

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:07 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.

Good point. In Thailand it seems to be normal to take orders from one's preceptor for 5 years, then one is free to go one's own way, or seek other teachers. However, sometimes this can happen sooner if the preceptor doesn't take much interest in the training. So, for example, as he tells it, Ven Tiradhammo wound up with Ajahn Chah after a couple of years of having no real instruction.

Metta
Mike


It isn't uncommon for teachers to send their students off to other teachers (in Burma atleast).
but ones preceptor isn't necessarily the primary teacher, or as the tibetans call them root teacher.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:15 pm

While we're on the topic of preceptors and lineages, let's not forget where this 'Theravadin' lineage of Bhikkhunis has arisen from.

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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:25 pm

Hi Jack,
I thought the Sri Lankan line werent from there? I though it was reinstated by a single ordination done by monks in sri lanka?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination ... #Sri_Lanka
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... aloka.html (about half way down)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:38 pm

realised it was posted on the wrong thread sorry please delete this post
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:43 pm

Hi Manapa

I don't really know what to think about ordination of Bhikkhuni's where actual Bhikkhuni's do not serve as preceptors. Safe to say I don't know enough about this to form an opinion.

Also on a side note JC only the Siam Nikaya actually comes from Thailand. Interestingly it is the same chapter of Sri Lankan Buddhism that only admits members from the highest social caste. They're pretty much the ones in charge too it seems, and control many of the historic and important sites. The Amarapura Nikaya comes from Burma, so to the Rammana Nikaya. It is in the latter two that you'll actually find most of the real practitioners, particularly the Rammana Nikaya, which contains the Galduwa Forest tradition.
Last edited by BlackBird on Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

Postby tellyontellyon » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:02 pm

Still not sure... does a Bhikkuni wanting to be part of the Therevada tradition need a Therevadin preceptor... or is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni?

Is the necessity for the preceptor to be a Therevadin Bhukkuni, or would a Bhukkuni from another tradition qualify?
Does the vinaya specify that the Bhukkuni must be from the same tradition?

Do Therevadins not recognise Bukkhunis from other traditions as Bhikkunis?

Sorry to ask so many questions. :embarassed:
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