cittanupassana

[effort]

in vipassana as i understand there is no direct method of meditating on the mind object, and the way vipassana approaches to mind meditation is during mediation on physical object like body or abdomen when a gross mind state like greed or torpor appears and meditator notes that. so there is no direct method of mind object meditation? or there is and that is calm abiding? i remember that there was a huge topic about calm abiding in in esangha.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings effort,

Well there is... and you named it in the title of this subject, cittanupassana!

The method is taught in...

MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

and associated commentaries such as...

The Way of Mindfulness (The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary) by Soma Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Hi Effort
My primary object is vedana and sometimes I switch to citta. I remember my teacher saying a couple of years ago during retreat that by observing vedana one was also observing the mind the reason being that all but four classes of cittas co-arise with vedana. For me personally, I find cittanupassana too ephemeral for daily practice and I find I benefit more with something more earthy - hence vedananupassana.
All the best.

Ben

[effort]

thanks ben, it is exactly what is in this record:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/29/ta ... f_mind.mp3

retro, but i didnt heard anytime that a teacher instructing sit and look at your 5 kinds of consciousness, or mental qualities directly ( something like what they do in vedana)

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Effort,

retro, but i didnt heard anytime that a teacher instructing sit and look at your 5 kinds of consciousness, or mental qualities directly ( something like what they do in vedana)

Well that's where what teachers teach, differs from what the Buddha taught, isn't it?

Metta,
Retro.

[effort]

you know retro, it is really strange for me that in some sects ( other than theravada ) they emphasize on merely sitting and being aware of your current mind, and in theravada there is no instruction at all for this(almost) or if there is i dont know.

bhikkhu khemavamsa has a book about cittanupassana and thats the only one that i saw directly pointing to that, but interestingly he is a theravadian.

i think the first hand experiment for the teachers in theravada comes from ajahn lee or around that time till now( and there is a huge gap into real practice till almost 150-200 years ago), and during this period of time the most influential teachers were mostly focusing on veddana because they didnt had a reliable teachers to teach them directly other aspects of nupassana, so because of this there is not so many different approaches in theravada.

i mean its not fair becuase as long as i observe breath i loss my mind balance, my hearth rate, over breathing and many others problems but i can sit and look to mind( i know this is not like arising and passing away,and mostly like i, self, consciousness) and there must be a way that i( or people who are like me) can use this object to do vipassana.

[Ben]

Hi effort
My experience has been that when one is practicing vedananupassana for an extended period in a retreat setting, the mind becomes more sensitive and stable and one's attention can more easily switch to mind states without getting blown away or embroiled in identifying with mental content. The monkey mind is happening all the time, but as one settles into vedananupassana there is less grasping and identifying with the mind states and mental content and more observation. If you can observe the anicca characteristic (or for that matter the dukkha or anatta characteristic) of mental states, then you are practicing vipassana.
It would be worthwhile checking out the section on cittanupassana in the visuddhimagga - if you have a copy.
metta

Ben

[mikenz66]

Hi Effort,

you know retro, it is really strange for me that in some sects ( other than theravada ) they emphasize on merely sitting and being aware of your current mind, and in theravada there is no instruction at all for this(almost) or if there is i dont know.

I don't understand this statement. There is a lot of detail in the Satipatthana Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

C. Mind

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.
...

Usually a teacher will have you start with one of the body contemplations (e.g. motion of the feet or the abdomen in the Mahasi school), then, once you have some calm to notice "feelings" (whether a sensation is pleasant, painful, or neutral), then progress on to looking at the mind states ("moods" is a useful rough translation, in my opinion). As Ben says, these are rather subtle, and it's hard to catch them changing, so it's something you progress to after some practise and you won't necessarily see in introductory instructions.

Metta
Mike

[bazzaman]

.

[effort]

When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

how someone could know there is delusion?

[Ben]

Hi effort
So long as one is a putthujana, delusion is present.
But for practical purposes, one can know delusion is present in the mind by observing the dominant hindrance or sankhara that may be manifesting through one or more of the satipatthanas.
kind regards

Ben

[bodom]

When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

how someone could know there is delusion?

A fool who knows his foolishness is wise at least to that extent, but a fool who thinks himself wise is a fool indeed. - Dhp 63

[Goofaholix]

how someone could know there is delusion?

You can pretty much assume there is always going to be a measure of delusion present, so you can be open to observe it all the time. There is going to be a delay, sometimes a long delay before you really see it for what it is, when you do see it for what it is then that's wisdom and you have to opprtunity to let go.

As mentioned before Sayadaw U Tejaniya teaches Cittanupassana so i recommend you have a look through http://sayadawutejaniya.org/

Other teaches tend to teach it after you've had a good grounding in other foundations of mindfulness, so just because it's not immediately apparent that they teach it doesn't mean they don't.I think it's a difficult practice unless you've had a good grounding in other foundations of mindfulness first.

[acinteyyo]

When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

how someone could know there is delusion?

I just came across an Ajahn Chah quote which reminds me of this thread:

Someone commented, "I can observe desire and aversion in my mind, but it's hard to observe delusion".
"You're riding on a horse and asking where the horse is?" was Ajahn Chah's reply.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Alexei]

how someone could know there is delusion?

Perhaps, it is knowledge, that there is some wrong view. E.g. following unwholesome intention may lead to happiness or identifying with dhammas.

[rowyourboat]

what is delusion? I have always found this list helpful (vipallasa -perversions)
1) thinking the impermanent is permanent
2) thinking the unsatisfactory is satisfactory
3) thinking the not-self is self
4) thinking the unwholesome is wholesome

you can do both body/breath and mind mindfulness at different times. They will support each other.

with metta

RYB

[Thai_Theravada]

...

[PeterB]

To what are mind objects, objects Thai Theravada ?

[Thai_Theravada]

Hi PeterB

If i misunderstood please give me the explanation,
But In Thai, we didn't use the word like "Mind Object"
because the definition of the word "Object" :
"An object is anything that has a fixed shape or form, that you can touch or see"
It totally differ from the qualification of mind.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Thai_Theravada,

What is being referred to here is the 3rd of the 4 frames of references (or foundations of mindfulness) found in the Satipatthana Sutta...

Extract from MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

"In this way he remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself, or externally on the mind in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the mind in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a mind' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.

I agree that "mind object" isn't a particularly good translation - "quality of mind" would be better.

Metta,
Retro.