Bhikkuni's / Ajahn Brahm /Thai lineage?

[tellyontellyon]

Sorry to start a new thread but I wanted to ask a specific questions?

* Regardless of how the ordination came about, are the ordained nuns to be regarded as Bhukkinis in the Thai lineage?

(I'm hoping 'lineage' is the right word, I come from a Tibetan lineage myself and so am not au fait with Therevadin lingo. Anyway, I hope you understand what I mean)

[Cittasanto]

I don't think so, I think they are considered part of the Sri Lankan liniage as I believe that is the line the peceptor comes from, I am not sure 100%, although it would be the line the preceptor is from not the line the witnesses are.

[jcsuperstar]

well the sri lankan theravada lineage comes from thailand so there is still a thai connection...

but as regards the idea of a theravada lineage,all monks are apart of the theravada lineage with the exception of some monks who have ghettoized themself into smaller groups they think are somehow more pure than the mainstream Theravada. you're really not going to find lineages comparable to how there are different schools of Tibetan Buddhism or zen etc. a Theravada monk is pretty much free to just go from temple to temple learning whatever is taught there whether it be a Burmese style, Thai style etc.

the problem here isnt what lineage they have been ordained into but whether or not theravada monks will recognize them as theravada nuns. some have said they are not nuns at all, others have said they are mahayana nuns, which is a misnomer as there is no such thing as a mahayana monk or nun, as there is no mahayana vinaya

[tellyontellyon]

So how are things looking in terms of their ordination being accepted by Therevada monks?

[wtp]

Is lineage a Vinaya term or concept? I don't believe so.

If not then the idea that a monk or nun is following a particular lineage because of who their preceptor was is probably invalid. Talking about schools of Theravada Buddhism makes more sense to me rather than lineage. I would like to think, for example that Ajahn Chah would not have condoned some monk claiming to be of his lineage, and hence somehow authoritative, just because they were ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who he happened to teach for a few years. On the other hand if they studied with and learnt from the teachings of Ajahn Chah and his disciples (and even more importantly practiced them), regardless of who their preceptor was, I suspect he would be happy with such a monk claiming affiliation with his school .

In my view this notion of authority coming from supposed lineage affiliation really is contrary to the word and spirit of the suttas, and I suspect this is true of the Vinaya as well but I am far less knowledgeable of the latter and am happy to be corrected.

[jcsuperstar]

So how are things looking in terms of their ordination being accepted by Therevada monks?

we're probably gonna have to give it awhile.

[cooran]

Is lineage a Vinaya term or concept? I don't believe so.

If not then the idea that a monk or nun is following a particular lineage because of who their preceptor was is probably invalid. Talking about schools of Theravada Buddhism makes more sense to me rather than lineage. I would like to think, for example that Ajahn Chah would not have condoned some monk claiming to be of his lineage, and hence somehow authoritative, just because they were ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who was ordained by a disciple who he happened to teach for a few years. On the other hand if they studied with and learnt from the teachings of Ajahn Chah and his disciples (and even more importantly practiced them), regardless of who their preceptor was, I suspect he would be happy with such a monk claiming affiliation with his school .

In my view this notion of authority coming from supposed lineage affiliation really is contrary to the word and spirit of the suttas, and I suspect this is true of the Vinaya as well but I am far less knowledgeable of the latter and am happy to be corrected.

Hello wtp, all,

You may find this interesting:

Lineage
http://www.vimutti.org.nz/lineage.php

metta
Chris

[mikenz66]

Interestingly, if "lineage" is defined in terms of preceptors, then among the Ajahn Chah students there isn't much. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahanikaya sect (whereas Ajahn Mun was Dhammayut). Many of the prominent Western students, including Ajahns Sumedho, Passano, Tiradhammo, and Brahm, were not ordained by Ajahn Chah.

Metta
Mike

[tiltbillings]

. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahasanghika sect (

Mahanikaya.

[mikenz66]

. Ajahn Chah was a monk long before his brief interaction with Ajahn Mun and in fact was ordained in the Mahasanghika sect (

Mahanikaya.

Hmm, Thanks. Should have used Wikipedia, rather than the less-than-reliable Encylopedia Brittanica:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... =ref422793

Mike

[Cittasanto]

Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.

[mikenz66]

Hi Manapa,

Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.

Good point. In Thailand it seems to be normal to take orders from one's preceptor for 5 years, then one is free to go one's own way, or seek other teachers. However, sometimes this can happen sooner if the preceptor doesn't take much interest in the training. So, for example, as he tells it, Ven Tiradhammo wound up with Ajahn Chah after a couple of years of having no real instruction.

Metta
Mike

[cooran]

Hello Mike,

Just a snippet of news ~ Ajahn Tiradhammo is stopping off at Dhammagiri, Queensland, on 13th December, leaving on the 15th for Wellington ... on the way back home from WAM. He is giving a public talk at Dhammagiri on 13th December at 6.00 p.m.

metta
Chris

[mikenz66]

Thanks Chris,

Just a snippet of news ~ Ajahn Tiradhammo is stopping off at Dhammagiri, Queensland, on 13th December, leaving on the 15th for Wellington ... on the way back home from WAM. He is giving a public talk at Dhammagiri on 13th December at 6.00 p.m.

Yes, I recall he said he was going to Australia in December when he was here a few weeks ago. I'm pleased that you will get to meet him (or meet him again...).

Metta
Mike

[Cittasanto]

Hi Manapa,

Lineage could mean the ordination line or the teaching line, I above was using the ordination line, as sujato and some others who have done the research in this posit the ordination doesn't necesarilly dictate which teacher you follow.

Good point. In Thailand it seems to be normal to take orders from one's preceptor for 5 years, then one is free to go one's own way, or seek other teachers. However, sometimes this can happen sooner if the preceptor doesn't take much interest in the training. So, for example, as he tells it, Ven Tiradhammo wound up with Ajahn Chah after a couple of years of having no real instruction.

Metta
Mike

It isn't uncommon for teachers to send their students off to other teachers (in Burma atleast).
but ones preceptor isn't necessarily the primary teacher, or as the tibetans call them root teacher.

[BlackBird]

While we're on the topic of preceptors and lineages, let's not forget where this 'Theravadin' lineage of Bhikkhunis has arisen from.

metta
Jack

[Cittasanto]

Hi Jack,
I thought the Sri Lankan line werent from there? I though it was reinstated by a single ordination done by monks in sri lanka?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination ... #Sri_Lanka
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... aloka.html (about half way down)

[Cittasanto]

realised it was posted on the wrong thread sorry please delete this post

[BlackBird]

Hi Manapa

I don't really know what to think about ordination of Bhikkhuni's where actual Bhikkhuni's do not serve as preceptors. Safe to say I don't know enough about this to form an opinion.

Also on a side note JC only the Siam Nikaya actually comes from Thailand. Interestingly it is the same chapter of Sri Lankan Buddhism that only admits members from the highest social caste. They're pretty much the ones in charge too it seems, and control many of the historic and important sites. The Amarapura Nikaya comes from Burma, so to the Rammana Nikaya. It is in the latter two that you'll actually find most of the real practitioners, particularly the Rammana Nikaya, which contains the Galduwa Forest tradition.

[tellyontellyon]

Still not sure... does a Bhikkuni wanting to be part of the Therevada tradition need a Therevadin preceptor... or is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni, is a Bhukkuni?

Is the necessity for the preceptor to be a Therevadin Bhukkuni, or would a Bhukkuni from another tradition qualify?
Does the vinaya specify that the Bhukkuni must be from the same tradition?

Do Therevadins not recognise Bukkhunis from other traditions as Bhikkunis?

Sorry to ask so many questions.