Paramis or Perfections

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Paramis or Perfections

Post by Paññāsikhara »

I'm going to be lazy, and ask Retro to look it up, but are the comments above in the Vsm talking about sambuddha bodhisattas, or other types of bodhisattvas? (like paccekas or savakas?) I ask, because we must keep in mind that the (later at least) Theravada uses the term "bodhisatta" to talk about all types, not just those who seek samma sambuddhata. If it does include these others, then it is referring to all practitioners.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Paramis or Perfections

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings venerable,

I'll attempt to do so, but I don't have a copy with me at the moment (so if anyone wants to beat me to it, then by all means...)

In the meantime... (from the same source as my last post)
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:It should be noted that in established Theravaada tradition the paaramiis are not regarded as a discipline peculiar to candidates for Buddhahood alone but as practices which must be fulfilled by all aspirants to enlightenment and deliverance, whether as Buddhas, paccekabuddhas, or disciples. What distinguishes the supreme bodhisattva from aspirants in the other two vehicles is the degree to which the paaramiis must be cultivated and the length of time they must be pursued. But the qualities themselves are universal requisites for deliverance, which all must fulfill to at least a minimal degree to merit the fruits of the liberating path.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Paramis or Perfections

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Well, there we go. I thought as much.

I still don't really see them as saying anything other than, or in contradiction to, the early suttas.

Perhaps the difference being, as "systemization" was the norm, rather than the direct "What you have to do right now" teachings that the Buddha gave to his disciples who were obviously mostly quite spiritually advanced persons, these slightly later teachings are saying "What one has to do as a whole", outlining a complete path from beginning to end, to be followed by anyone.

Any given person may be at any given point along that "whole path", from which a "what to do right now" teaching may be indicated.

A different style or form / genre, that direct comparison may confuse (asking if one lives up to the standard of the other, for instance).

Sorry, not a particularly coherent post, but hey, you get that sometimes! :P
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Paramis or Perfections

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote:I'm going to be lazy, and ask Retro to look it up, but are the comments above in the Vsm talking about sambuddha bodhisattas, or other types of bodhisattvas? (like paccekas or savakas?) I ask, because we must keep in mind that the (later at least) Theravada uses the term "bodhisatta" to talk about all types, not just those who seek samma sambuddhata. If it does include these others, then it is referring to all practitioners.
It's hard to tell by looking at the translation. I'll add the start of the verse:
Vism IX,124:
"When he has understood thus the special efficacy of each [Brahmavihara] resides respectively in 'Having beauty as the highest', etc, he should understand how they bring to perfection all the good states beginning with giving. For the Great Beings' minds retain their balance by giving preference to beings' welfare, by dislike of beings' suffering, by desire for the various successes achieved by beings to last, and by impartiality towards all beings. [This, of course, is a summary of the four Brahmaviharas] And to all beings they give gifts, which are a source of pleasure, without discriminating thus: 'It must be given to this one; it must not be given to this one'. ...
So it's not clear to me whether the "Great Beings" are Buddhas or Arahants, and it's not clear that this is an instruction to "follow some slow path", or whether is is just an instruction to just reflect that this is what a Buddha (or Arahant) has achieved and how that relates to these particular meditation practises.

I think it's interesting to consider to what extent those perfections are just a collecting together of advice from various parts of the Suttas, and to what extent they are an "alternative path". They certainly sound to me like sensible things to develop that are fully consistent with the Suttas. Whether one considers them part of a separate "Bodhisatta Path" is, for me, a different issue.

Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Paramis or Perfections

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote: Perhaps the difference being, as "systemization" was the norm, rather than the direct "What you have to do right now" teachings that the Buddha gave to his disciples who were obviously mostly quite spiritually advanced persons, these slightly later teachings are saying "What one has to do as a whole", outlining a complete path from beginning to end, to be followed by anyone.
I agree (I think). The Visuddhimagga has all kinds of advice, ranging from very mundane practical advice to very advanced doctrinal analysis. And, as you say, various systematizations. I look on it as the sort of advice one of my teachers might give me from time to time, except that they would just mention the bits that were appropriate for the occasion. They wouldn't just give me 1000-odd pages of instructions at once...

Metta
Mike
Post Reply