Brahm preceptor status revoked

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Assaji »

Hi Oleksandr,
Oleksandr wrote:There is something good in keeping traditions, and something good in modernization.

But in this particular case, do you consider adhering to traditions is better than modernization for Thai sangha? Why?
The Australian events are not about modernization, and even not about Bhikkhuni ordination.

It's just that Ajahn Brahm and his colleagues wanted to split from Forest Sangha and establish their own rules. This course of events has been prepared for a long time - see, for example, the works of Sujato like

It's time
http://santipada.googlepages.com/it%27stime" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A History of Mindfulness
http://santipada.googlepages.com/bhante ... work#books" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have been waiting all along to distance themselves from Theravada and acquire a brand of "original, pre-sectarian Buddhism". It's just the question of politics and acquiring own brand name.

They use the issue of Bhukkhuni ordination for their own purposes.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hi Dmytro.

Those are some serious acusations. How do you know their intentions?

Metta
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Cittasanto »

some of this has already been gone over in the other thread, do we need another thread doing the same thing?

Edit - this link was already posted there 5 days before this thread started
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Assaji »

Hi Modus.Ponens,
Modus.Ponens wrote:Those are some serious acusations. How do you know their intentions?
I have given the links to articles where Sujato attacks Theravada and puts forward the idea of 'pre-sectarian Buddhism', for example:

It's time
http://santipada.googlepages.com/it%27stime" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(This article originally had a warlike heading "Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism")

Similar statements can be found in the talks of Ajahn Brahmavamso.
User avatar
Vardali
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:56 am

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Vardali »

Dmytro wrote:...
I have given the links to articles where Sujato attacks Theravada and puts forward the idea of 'pre-sectarian Buddhism', for example:

It's time
http://santipada.googlepages.com/it%27stime" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
....
Hm, I wanted to stay out of this, but after reading the article you linked, I fail to see where this is an attack on Theravada.
Frankly, I haven't read anything in there that wouldn't be perfectly consistent with an academic approach to any sort of validation and authentification, be they religious in nature or not.
And unlike many other religions, Buddhism seems to encourage a to explicitly use one's facilities (including the brain) rather than to do anything due to "blind faith".

Seems a valid - standard academic - approach to validate authenticity claims suggested there, so what is so shocking about this?
:shrug:
:coffee:
User avatar
jcsuperstar
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
Contact:

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by jcsuperstar »

gam zeh yaavor
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by cooran »

One day Solomon decided to humble Benaiah Ben Yehoyada, his most trusted minister. He said to him, "Benaiah, there is a certain ring that I want you to bring to me. I wish to wear it for Sukkot which gives you six months to find it." "If it exists anywhere on earth, your majesty," replied Benaiah, "I will find it and bring it to you, but what makes the ring so special?" "It has magic powers," answered the king. "If a happy man looks at it, he becomes sad, and if a sad man looks at it, he becomes happy." Solomon knew that no such ring existed in the world, but he wished to give his minister a little taste of humility. Spring passed and then summer, and still Benaiah had no idea where he could find the ring. On the night before Sukkot, he decided to take a walk in one of the poorest quarters of Jerusalem. He passed by a merchant who had begun to set out the day's wares on a shabby carpet. "Have you by any chance heard of a magic ring that makes the happy wearer forget his joy and the broken-hearted wearer forget his sorrows?" asked Benaiah. He watched the grandfather take a plain gold ring from his carpet and engrave something on it. When Benaiah read the words on the ring, his face broke out in a wide smile. That night the entire city welcomed in the holiday of Sukkot with great festivity. "Well, my friend," said Solomon, "have you found what I sent you after?" All the ministers laughed and Solomon himself smiled. To everyone's surprise, Benaiah held up a small gold ring and declared, "Here it is, your majesty!" As soon as Solomon read the inscription, the smile vanished from his face. The jeweler had written three Hebrew letters on the gold band: gimel, zayin, yud, which began the words "Gam zeh ya'avor" -- "This too shall pass." At that moment Solomon realized that all his wisdom and fabulous wealth and tremendous power were but fleeting things, for one day he would be nothing but dust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_too_shall_pass" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Anders
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:52 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Anders »

Dmytro wrote: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi revoked his support for Australian ordination:
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... _06_B.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His links to Sri Lankan Sangha are now tenuous.
You should read that letter more carefully. Specifically:

I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called “Mahayana countries” or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravāda tradition in our time.

...

The opinion I express here is in full accord with the qualifications that I made in the full version of my Hamburg presentation, which I will cite as an appendix to this letter. Please be assured that, while I express these reservations about the way Ajahn Brahm proceeded in this affair, I still lend him my moral support just as much as I support the revival of bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravāda tradition.
He expressed his reservations about the circumstances of the ordination. Not the ordination itself.
Why do you think that "a significant part of the Sri Lankan Sangha" supports Ajahn Brahms interpretation?
Because Sri Lanka is the only Theravadin country that has so far actually reinstated the bhikkhuni sangha.
And who will decide what's correct?
That is of course the question. My point here is your portrayal of Ajahn Brahms as someone who goes simply his own way without regard for protocol or vinaya is inaccurate. He has acted in accord with what he believes the Vinaya to say and that is an interpretration supported by many reputable scholars.

I am quite aware that there are reputable scholars who will say otherwise as well, but I think the above is sufficient to establish that your claim that he 'wanted to split from Forest Sangha and establish his own rules' is not an accurate portrayal of what has happened. Your attribution of questionable motivations is something I likewise would consider, if not slanderous, then certainly lowering the tone of debate.
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by BlackBird »

Anders Honore wrote:
Dmytro wrote:
Why do you think that "a significant part of the Sri Lankan Sangha" supports Ajahn Brahms interpretation?
Because Sri Lanka is the only Theravadin country that has so far actually reinstated the bhikkhuni sangha.
I think the word 'tollerated' would be more fitting than 'supported' or 'reinstated' in this instance. I would liken Bhikkhuni ordination in Sri Lanka to a sapling that is sending out it's root system, but it's a long way from becoming a tree.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Assaji »

Hi Vardali,
Vardali wrote:Seems a valid - standard academic - approach to validate authenticity claims suggested there, so what is so shocking about this?
Have you seen a single academic article with statements like "Buddhism is suffering from schizophrenia"?

Or a list of controversial statements, with no refrences, with conclusion below: "These conclusions are now firmly established"?
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Assaji »

Hi Anders,
Anders Honore wrote:
Why do you think that "a significant part of the Sri Lankan Sangha" supports Ajahn Brahms interpretation?
Because Sri Lanka is the only Theravadin country that has so far actually reinstated the bhikkhuni sangha.
Well, the fact that there's Bhikkhuni Sangha in Sri Lanka (though not recognized by the heads of Nikayas and the government), doesn't mean in any way that "a significant part of the Sri Lankan Sangha" supports Ajahn Brahm's interpretation.

Ajahn Brahm has gone his own way. In my own opinion (and opinion of some monks), his actions have marginalized and discredited the long-standing efforts of women ordination.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Paññāsikhara »

:offtopic:
Vardali wrote:
Dmytro wrote:...
I have given the links to articles where Sujato attacks Theravada and puts forward the idea of 'pre-sectarian Buddhism', for example:

It's time
http://santipada.googlepages.com/it%27stime" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
....
Hm, I wanted to stay out of this, but after reading the article you linked, I fail to see where this is an attack on Theravada.
Frankly, I haven't read anything in there that wouldn't be perfectly consistent with an academic approach to any sort of validation and authentification, be they religious in nature or not.
And unlike many other religions, Buddhism seems to encourage a to explicitly use one's facilities (including the brain) rather than to do anything due to "blind faith".

Seems a valid - standard academic - approach to validate authenticity claims suggested there, so what is so shocking about this?
:shrug:
:coffee:
I don't think it quite measures up to "standard academic" approach. One major criteria for academic standard is citation of relevant information, and reference to other works in the area. This article only contains one or two. Another criteria is peer review, that's what journals are for, not internet pages, blogs, etc.

For this:

The basic conclusion is that the Chinese Agamas and the Pali Nikayas are identical in doctrine. They are two slightly varying recensions of the same set of texts. These texts – popularly referred to simply as ‘the suttas’ – were assembled by the first generations of the Buddha’s followers, before the period of sectarian divisions. They are pre-sectarian Buddhism.


I disagree, and so do many other scholars. (Ven Sujato cites AK Warder, but Warder can't even read Chinese, so he doesn't know either, and is working second and third hand; He also cites Lamotte, who can read this stuff, but he is not a Nikaya / Agama specialist either. Kalupahana is exaggerating, as usual.)

Large parts may be "pre-sectarian", but other parts are definitely not.

One of the big problems is the large majority of all the Nikaya and Agama literature that we have, is all from the Sthavira side (so called Theravada, Dharmagupta and Sarvastivada), and the Mahasamghika side is largely unrepresented (except one very late Agama). So, at best, we can try to work out some sort of Asokan period Sthavira positions. Then, for those points where they disagree, we sometimes cannot know either way, it's kind of a "split vote".

Some of the criteria he provides sounds reasonable, but is actually not necessarily in accord with standard textual criticism methods. eg. simplicity, vs "difficile lector". He also favors a "text that never was" over "best text" methodology, though both have their problems, too.

This is seriously tricky stuff. !!

:focus:
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
Anders
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:52 pm

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Anders »

From an academic pov, there is much in Sujato's writings that strike me as a product of undisciplined and often unsound method. He's obviously smart and well educated in the material he uses, but I tend to take his lines of reasoning with a grain of salt. I also recommend something sweet on the side for his rather acerbic rethoric.

Still, he raises some very interesting points and does present some edifying material.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
I don't think it quite measures up to "standard academic" approach. :
I do not think any of the stuff of his I have read measures up 'to "standard academic" approach.' It is not that it is not interesting or that good points are not made, but his work that I have read is more line with a talented amatuer scholar.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Vardali
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:56 am

Re: Brahm preceptor status revoked

Post by Vardali »

Vardali wrote:
Dmytro wrote:...
I have given the links to articles where Sujato attacks Theravada and puts forward the idea of 'pre-sectarian Buddhism', for example:

It's time
http://santipada.googlepages.com/it%27stime" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
....
Hm, I wanted to stay out of this, but after reading the article you linked, I fail to see where this is an attack on Theravada.
..

Seems a valid - standard academic - approach to validate authenticity claims suggested there, so what is so shocking about this?
...
I guess I haven't been precise enough in my question. And I fully agree that the paper in question is in no way an "academic paper" (I also agree on the need of proper referencing and peer review for the qualification of the "content claims" in this article). I don't think it aims to be, either. But I wasn't so much commenting on the form/style of the paper but on the approach it suggests.

The approach, he is using - and I cannot argue the content of his line of argument - is quite typical in the approach to validation/falsification.
Coming from a historian's perspective, not a philological one, you would normally pick your scripts and artefacts and cross-reference them to similarities/differences in form, structure, content etc.
This is pretty much the approach, he is proposing, so again: I simply fail to see where this approach is an "attack on Theravada" part.
The approach described applies in my opinion to any religious claim, and Ven. Sujato focuses on Buddhism as such.
Post Reply