Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

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suanck
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Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by suanck »

From the thread http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=20:
Paññāsikhara:

.... Reminds me of a good friend of mine, Bhante "A", a Thai bhikkhu (since age 10, or so, now about 30), who has been studying in Taiwan for maybe about 6 years now. We were talking about the Nikayas and Agamas, this whole "early / original Buddhism" idea. He said that actually, much of "original Buddhism" in Taiwanese academia has already become "Samyuktagama studies"...
Is anyone familiar with research works by Dr Mun-Keat Choong, University of New England, Australia? It seems he wrote books and articles on the comparision between the Samyutta-Nikaya (Pali) & Samyukta-Agama (Chinese). However, his PhD thesis, published as a book, is hard to get. By looking at his photo ( http://www.une.edu.au/staff/mchoong.php), it seems that he is a monk from the Mahayana tradion.

Suan
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Paññāsikhara »

suanck wrote:From the thread http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=20:
Paññāsikhara:

.... Reminds me of a good friend of mine, Bhante "A", a Thai bhikkhu (since age 10, or so, now about 30), who has been studying in Taiwan for maybe about 6 years now. We were talking about the Nikayas and Agamas, this whole "early / original Buddhism" idea. He said that actually, much of "original Buddhism" in Taiwanese academia has already become "Samyuktagama studies"...
Is anyone familiar with research works by Dr Mun-Keat Choong, University of New England, Australia? It seems he wrote books and articles on the comparision between the Samyutta-Nikaya (Pali) & Samyukta-Agama (Chinese). However, his PhD thesis, published as a book, is hard to get. By looking at his photo ( http://www.une.edu.au/staff/mchoong.php), it seems that he is a monk from the Mahayana tradion.

Suan
Since it is a post of mine from another thread that is being used as a thread starter here, may be appropriate to say a few words.

I am somewhat somewhat familiar with Choong's book The Notion of Emptiness in Early Buddhism, because my own dissertation is on sunyata in the early Prajnaparamita, and so I build up from so-called early Buddhism and mainstream school Buddhism. It seems to me that a lot of the content of Choong's book is from the first chapter of Yinshun's book Investigations into Sunyata 空之探究, 1985. So, I just use Yinshun, who I think does a better job on the stratification of the primary source material (eg. Choong includes the Ekottaragama, which is almost definitely quite a late version, and also some sutras / suttas of schools which are not found in other schools, and are hence most properly considered as sectarian and not pan-Buddhist texts). I haven't read or studied his more recent writings, however. It looks like he is becoming quite specialist in this area, great stuff! It is a pity that most of his comparative studies seem to be quite small-range, what is needed is a great broad overview of the material. I wonder if he has thought about translating Yinshun's Compilation of the Early Buddhist Canon into English? That would be a great help.

I think that although he is ordained in the Chinese traditions, coming from Malaysia, I believe, there is quite a lot of Theravada influence amongst many Chinese Buddhists in Malaysia (I have more than a few friends who are Malaysian Chinese, ordained in the Theravada). Remember, even those ordained in the Chinese system, ie. Dharmagupta based bhiksu/ni ordination, plus Bodhisattva precepts, their bhiksu/ni ordination is still that of an early Buddhist school. In a sort of way, they are not "Mahayana bhiksu/nis", but are "Dharmagupta bhiksu/nis, and Mahayana Bodhisattvas".
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Ben
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Ben »

Thank you Bhante for your contribution!
Venerable Choong's body of work looks extremely interesting.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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suanck
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by suanck »

Thanks you, Bhante, for information.

I'm interested to get one of his books: "The fundamental teachings of early Buddhism: A comparative study based on the Sutranga portion of the Pali Samyutta-Nikaya and the Chinese Samyuktagama", based on his PhD Thesis. I could not believe the price tag of US$1,400.00 when I searched at amazon.com! See it at: http://www.amazon.com/fundamental-teach ... 344704232X

Perhaps it is classified as a rare book for collector's items!

Additional search at the original publisher in Germany ( http://www.harrassowitz.de/ ) reveals the list price is only 74 euros.

Don't know if I should try to order a copy!

Suan
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Assaji
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Assaji »

Hi Suan,

You may find interesting:

A Digital Comparative Edition and Translation of the Shorter Chinese Saṃyukta Āgama (T.100)

http://buddhistinformatics.chibs.edu.tw/BZA/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ations.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A CRITICAL TRANSLATION OF FAN DONG JING, THE CHINESE VERSION OF BRAHMAJALA SUTRA
by Cheng Jianhua

http://www.library.websangha.org/earlyb ... Agamas.zip" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Comparative Study of Different Versions of the Dharmapada
Research in Chinese Versions of this Ancient Buddhist Text

Miroslav Rozehnal

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-AN/101333" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://ekottara.googlepages.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.suttacentral.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro
Bankei
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Bankei »

You may also find interesting the articles by the German Theravada monk ven Analayo. There are a few available online, including one or two in the Journal of Buddhist Ethics.
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by tiltbillings »

Bankei wrote:You may also find interesting the articles by the German Theravada monk ven Analayo. There are a few available online, including one or two in the Journal of Buddhist Ethics.
He is a very good scholar. If you could find links to these articles, it would be approceaited by me and others.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Assaji »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:He is a very good scholar. If you could find links to these articles, it would be approceaited by me and others.
I've given the link:

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ations.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by tiltbillings »

Really good stuff by a really good scholar monk. Thanks.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Ben »

Thanks Dmytro.
I've just checked out Ven Analayo's publication list and read one of his journal articles.
They're a real treasure! Thanks so much!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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zavk
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by zavk »

tiltbillings wrote:Really good stuff by a really good scholar monk. Thanks.
Ben wrote: I've just checked out Ven Analayo's publication list and read one of his journal articles.
They're a real treasure!
Hear hear! Ven. Analayo's work gets a two thumbs :twothumbsup: and two big toes up from me! :D

I think it was mentioned recently in another thread but I highly recommend his book on the Satipatthana. I've read it many times, but not cover to cover though. I find the book very useful as a resource for clarifying specific aspects of meditation practice as and when they come up in my experience.
With metta,
zavk
suanck
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by suanck »

zavk wrote:
I think it was mentioned recently in another thread but I highly recommend his book on the Satipatthana. I've read it many times, but not cover to cover though. I find the book very useful as a resource for clarifying specific aspects of meditation practice as and when they come up in my experience.
I agree. Ven Analayo's book -- based on his PhD thesis -- on the Satipatthana Sutta is a good reference book on the subject, and I strongly recommend all of us to obtain a copy and read.

A good review by Lance Cousins (4 pages, PDF format) could be downloaded from:

http://www.equinoxjournals.com/ojs/inde ... ue/view/83

Cousins concluded in that review: "... Ven. Anālayo has
collected and applied a great many relevant passages from the Pali canonical and commentarial
literature. This is a valuable contribution to the study of satipaṭṭhāna practice
within the Theravāda tradition. It also sheds much light on how an intelligent and scholarly
practitioner in present times perceives what he is doing
."

Thanks to you all, for the links on the subject of Samyutta-Nikaya (Pali) & Samyukta-Agama (Chinese). Much appreciated.

Since Pali (and Sanskrit) and Classical Chinese are difficult languages to master -- and require several years to study, I wonder if it's better to have joint effort, collaboration / team effort, for a group of scholars (some are fluent in Pali & some are fluent in Classical Chinese) to work together on the subject, instead of individual studies?

Suan
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by Paññāsikhara »

suanck wrote:
Since Pali (and Sanskrit) and Classical Chinese are difficult languages to master -- and require several years to study, I wonder if it's better to have joint effort, collaboration / team effort, for a group of scholars (some are fluent in Pali & some are fluent in Classical Chinese) to work together on the subject, instead of individual studies?

Suan
Well, sure, that is a nice idea. But the realities of academia are not always conducive for such things.

Profs and wannabe profs have to write articles and books. They do this between teaching classes,
usually scraping in hours or minutes between "scheduled" activities.
To work together on an article is not easy. They would almost have to be in the same location / university.
One may say that tech allows them to be at separate locations, but a lot of things have to be discussed ad nauseum.

However, the way things work, most Buddhist studies centers specialize in one type of Buddhism,
eg. Pali / Theravada Buddhism, East Asian Buddhism, etc. so, they seldom have the people who can do both.
Most specialists in Pali / Theravada may know some Sanskrit, but very, very know Chinese or Japanese.
Most specialists in East Asian Buddhism know classical Buddhist Chinese, and probably Japanese,
some may know Skt or even Tibetan, but few know Chinese. Most think it entirely irrelevant.

Moreover, less academic "cred" (which is needed to become a Prof, or gain tenure) is given to translations
than it is to "academic" studies. So, there is little impetus to do major translation works, eg. the Samyuktagama, etc.

Academic teamwork in writing articles is easier said than done.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by being5 »

Hello Suanck,

The Australasian Digital Theses Program lists Australasian theses http://adt.caul.edu.au/homesearch
If you do a search on "Choong" you will find the thesis you are interested in listed amongst the results (Number 28). It is not available online from the University of Qld. which awarded it but they do have a service where you can buy a hardcopy http://www.library.uq.edu.au/iad/docdeliv/uqtheses.html

The University of New England, UNE (the Australian one), where Dr. Choong is a staff member according to the link you posted has a copy of his thesis in book form and 3 other books by him in their library. Do a search on "Choong" and "Author" here: http://www.une.edu.au/library/
You might also consider emailing him [email protected]

You can join the UNE library as a special borrower for an annual fee and then use their resources, including borrowing books at a distance. If you are a student you may be able to borrow through inter library loan without having to become a special borrower. I'm assuming you're not in Australia...
http://www.une.edu.au/library/services/ ... rowers.php

being5
suanck
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Re: Samyutta-Nikaya & Samyuktagama

Post by suanck »

Ven Pannasikara:

Thanks for insightful info on the Buddhist academia world. It seems not much different than the scientific academia I used to know! :-)

Don't know if some Buddhist organisations in Taiwan or Japan, with strong financial supports, could organize and/or sponsor such joint research? Perhaps it's just my wishful thinking ...

Dear Being5,

Thanks for your informative message. I'm exploring ways to obtain a copy of that book.

Suan
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