The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

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The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby heraclito27 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:01 am

The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:25 am

The end of suffering (dukkha) is the end of dukkha!


don't really need to add any more types of dukkha, it simply is Dukkha which ends. but that isn't to say that we cease to feel things, or see.... things we may of found dukkha, but the reaction to them we have, ceases.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:27 am

Manapa wrote: but the reaction to them we have,
based upon greed, hatred and delusion
ceases.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Ben » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:28 am

Hi heraclito27
The end of suffering is the end of dukkha.
Vedana is classified as either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.
Some vedana are caused by such factors as nutriment and other external factors.
While the end of suffering is the end of dukkha, it isn;t necesarily the end of unpleasant sensation.
You see examples of this in the sutta where the Buddha reclines in order to relieve back pain and when Devadatta throws a rock which hits the Buddhas foot and causes it to bleed.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby heraclito27 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:00 pm

Really?
Dukkha <> dukkha-vedana.

But then, what is dukkha?

Thanks for answering :anjali: .
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:00 pm

heraclito27 wrote:But then, what is dukkha?

first noble truth
"Now what is the noble truth of suffering (dukkha)? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is suffering; not getting what one wants is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby heraclito27 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:32 pm

But for example birth, aging and death are material process. Matter doesn't know anything, is consiousness what knows. What does it know? It knows sense impressions as back pain and concepts like "I'm diying, I'm old, I can't do things".
It's because these kind of consiousness that arise dukkha-vedana.

If my body is dying, but this phenomena doesn't produce any painful sense impression, and does't produce any painful mental concept then I have no problem at all with body diying.

How can I perceive dukkha if is not by means or in the dimension of vedana?


"Now what is the noble truth of suffering (dukkha)? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are suffering; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is suffering; not getting what one wants is suffering. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are suffering.
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:45 pm

heraclito27 wrote:
If my body is dying, but this phenomena doesn't produce any painful sense impression, and does't produce any painful mental concept then I have no problem at all with body diying.

But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed. - Maha-parinibbana Sutta
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Dhammabodhi » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:04 pm

heraclito27 wrote:But then, what is dukkha?




:anjali:
-Samāhitam cittam yathābhutam pajānāti.

समाहितं चित्तं यथाभूतं पजानाती |

A concentrated mind sees things as they really are.

-Ujuko nāma so maggo, abhayā nāma sā disā.

उजुको नाम सो माग्गो, अभया नाम सा दिसा |

'Straight' is this path, fearlessness is its way.
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Rhino » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:42 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:
heraclito27 wrote:But then, what is dukkha?




:anjali:

Great explanation :thumbsup:
With best wishes

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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:53 pm

Dhammabodhi wrote:
heraclito27 wrote:But then, what is dukkha?




:anjali:

Superb.

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:47 pm

Greetings heraclito27,

Dukkha has multiple subtleties and can be translated in many ways depending on those subtleties... the more common translations include suffering, pain or stress.

Arahantship ends suffering and stress, but it does not end physical pain.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby phil » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:11 am

Sanghamitta wrote:
Dhammabodhi wrote:
heraclito27 wrote:But then, what is dukkha?




:anjali:

Superb.

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:


Very good indeed! Perhaps the Venerable (wonderful speaking style) could have expanded on the sports metaphor, though. He used the "stress" translation instead of "suffering" and emphasized the dukkha involved in excitement, in shouting on your favourite football team, or bungee jumping. But that excitement is only one aspect of dukkha, isn't it. There is also dukkha involved in the calmest of experiences, say canoeing on a misty lake at sunrise. Because of the impermanence, and the longing for a repeat of the experience it can condition, and the dissatisfaction with harsh situations it can condition. I know everyone knows that, but thought I'd just add to the venerable's excellent talk a little. Thanks for posting it!

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: The end of suffering is the end of dukkha vedana?

Postby Ben » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:41 am

Hi Phil
Indeed, everything experienced within samsara from the most gross to the supremely super-fine experiences within the arupa jhanas, condtions dukkha if attachment is present.
metta

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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