Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 04, 2009 8:38 am

Just a bit about the above "review."

Take this line from the above "review" -This doctrine is also called by the Greeks Apophasis. - and google it so:
"This doctrine is also called by the Greeks Apophasis." Amazon and you can see that Ken Wheeler aka Denise Anderson uses much of the above review as a boilerplate response to those books that do not promote a self view in Buddhism.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:ama ... n&filter=0

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Dan74
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Dan74 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:44 am

Perhaps what can be say fairly unequivocally is that it is unwise to be attached to a self or a view of a self. Just as it is unwise to be attached to a view of no-self.

?

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Ben
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Ben » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:56 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Sanghamitta
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:00 am

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Dan74
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Dan74 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:12 am

Hi Simone! :smile:

Well, Simon says, this Buddhism won't be much good to you if you merely attach to this formula, as a view. In fact, I'd say it would get in the way.

Investigate, where is this self? Just believe, post bizarre reviews, blather on about it, etc... This is what you call papanca, believe, and attachment to views, which is an obstacle to practice.

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:15 pm

I think that the Buddhadhamma is actually very good for me thank you Dan74. : It is not views per se that obscure us, it is wrong views. Another difference possibly between the Theravada and views that derive from the Vedanta.
Papanca according to many Theravadin commentators is not simply "views". It is a proliferation of views which are not to be found in the descriptions of being as outlined in the Pali Canon. Views which reinforce the sense of a permanent self, and which tend to an interpretation that suggests the existence of an atta.

But if I ever feel the need to explore a rather strange Zen/Theravada hybrid pov I am sure I will know where to turn.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:47 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:18 pm

He might of course be correct about having an extensive knowledge of Buddhist philosophy, proof positive that it doesnt mean that much unless it underpins Buddhist practice, particularly meditation practice. Then it is highly valuable.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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acinteyyo
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:20 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:52 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:54 pm


Sanghamitta
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:08 pm

The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Dan74
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Dan74 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:34 am

_/|\_

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:30 am

Some great posts from Tilt, above.
(Hope those references were useful to you.)
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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tiltbillings
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:31 am


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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 06, 2009 4:46 pm

I always thought this was simpler than people often make it seem.

Other philosophies say there is someone behind experience, experiencing, for example, in western philosophy, homunculus theory. Buddhism says there is just experience, so you could say experience is self.

But experience doesn't fit any traditional definition of self or even any traditional definition of a concept or compounded object - it lacks an unchanging nature. There's nothing you can say about it to describe it - you can describe an experience using terms relative to other experiences, but you cannot describe experience itself, which is why it is unconditioned. When the lack of an experiencer is realised, attention given to attempts to improve the condition of the experiencer fades and all attention is given to experience. Life becomes luminous, blissful and so on.

Of course, experience always was all there was, but illusorily in a kind of feedback loop or cycle of samsara. This is where words, or at least my words fail in explaining. Where did the arrow come from? Can't be answered and a mistake to try, I guess.

Supposing the idea of an unchanging nature is a category mistake in the first place. The words 'unchanging nature' are just words, they lack an objective correlate.

Oh dear, have I made this simpler, as I claim at the beginning, or more complex?
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby seanpdx » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:50 pm

Out of curiosity, what was the established, brahminic understanding of atman/atta at the time of the Buddha?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:09 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:09 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Challenging the traditional view of Anatta

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:16 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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