Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Chris wrote:Males, in this world, of all species, are usually stronger and more aggressive. Therefore they rule and take most of the important positions as the human world develops after each formation of the universe - especially in rural and more less industrial populations where the first glimmerings of questioning 'why are we here' 'where did we come from' 'where are we going after death' arise. This is usually the time when it is most effective for a great being, a Bodhisatta, to take rebirth and become a Fully Enlghtened Sammasambuddha.

Arahants have the same enlightenment as a Buddha.

metta
cooran
Hi Chris

This seems to be a correct observation.

However, from a scientific point of view (and I take it the Dhamma is largely scientific due to the principle of conditioned arising), the conditions for male dominance are of cultural and biological nature. But the Buddha-Dhamma deals with dukkha nirodha through the mind-ful eightfold middle-path, isn't it so?

Thus I understand why the self-enlightened Buddha was male.

But I haven't heard a sufficient explanation (based on Dhamma and Reason) yet why a self-enlightened Buddha has to be male.

Apologies for the rule-breaking by the way. Please move the thread to a proper subforum if possible.

And thanks for all your answers, friends.
Last edited by thecap on Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

thecap wrote:But the Buddha-Dhamma deals with dukkha nirodha through the mind-ful eightfold middle-path, isn't it so?
Indeed it does. Male sexuality is more brain centred and easily triggered whilst female sexuality is more body centred and pervasive.

In SN 48.22, Budddha said:
Bhikkhus, there are these three faculties. What three? The feminity faculty, the masculinity faculty, the life faculty. These are three faculties.
For a man who sees the shortcomings of reproduction, sexual nirodha is easy because it is directly connected with the brain and ditti (view) rather than being inherently pervasive.

Buddha's are male because nirodha of the five hindrances is easier for a male.

Buddha taught the five hindrances are the food (ahara) of ignorance (AN X.61).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings thecap,
thecap wrote:Please move the thread to a proper subforum if possible.
We've now moved from the Classical Theravada to General Theravada forum.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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genkaku
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by genkaku »

Please delete if it is somehow off-topic, but I would like to ask:

If we make distinctions between men and women, are we still talking about enlightenment?
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

thecap,

Just to be clear, now-a-days neither male nor female can become sammasambuddha because we are still living during the age of the previous sammasambuddha. So looking around the the conditions of today's society is irrelevant.

We don't know what the social conditions will be when the next sammasambuddha arises.
- Peter

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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

genkaku wrote:Please delete if it is somehow off-topic, but I would like to ask:

If we make distinctions between men and women, are we still talking about enlightenment?
I would guess it has less to do with enlightenment, since both men and women can become arahant, and more to do with the teaching function of a sammasambuddha. In this we are talking not just of enlightenment but also of enlightenment relating to unenlightenment, teacher relating to student.
- Peter

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thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Element wrote: Buddha's are male because nirodha of the five hindrances is easier for a male.

Buddha taught the five hindrances are the food (ahara) of ignorance (AN X.61).
Hi Element,

this explains why the odds are higher for male self-enlightenment, especially considering that men tend more to extreme disposition, which is may be required for unconventional abandonment to begin with. But it does not explain why only men can be self-enlightened.
retrofuturist wrote:We've now moved from the Classical Theravada to General Theravada forum.
Thanks. :thumbsup:
Peter wrote:we are still living during the age of the previous sammasambuddha. So looking around the the conditions of today's society is irrelevant.
Hi Peter

Fair enough, bar the societal aspect for future self-enlightenment, there's still the biological aspect.

And regardless of that, the human mind is still equally disposed independent of gender, isn't it?
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Cittasanto »

Peter wrote:I would guess it has less to do with enlightenment, since both men and women can become arahant, and more to do with the teaching function of a sammasambuddha. In this we are talking not just of enlightenment but also of enlightenment relating to unenlightenment, teacher relating to student.
If that is the case I think what ever form the next Buddha will take will be the form most easily listened to, and understood.
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Element

Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Element »

Manapa wrote:If that is the case I think what ever form the next Buddha will take will be the form most easily listened to, and understood.
Dhamma is always the same. The last Buddha is always with us in the suttas. If one does not listen and understand the last Buddha, one will not listen and understand the next one.

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Individual »

Element wrote:Dear Individual

A woman cannot attain Buddhahood through her own efforts and then establish the Buddhist religion. That is impossible.

First, a woman has little natural spiritual authority & power and would be readily dismissed by spiritual seekers, kings, the powerful, etc. For a person to establish a religion, they must exude a natural authority and awe, as we read of the Buddha or Jesus.
Right here and now, yes. Aeons from now, in a human realm not unlike our own, possibly not.
Element wrote: Temples and churches are full of women but the world is not full of female arahants. If Jesus or the Buddha was a woman, the temples and churches would not be full of women, praying for their hopes and wishes and fears.
There are more female religious leaders in modern days than in the past, and in western countries than elsewhere. You should consider the possibility that cultural patriarchy and misogyny are impermanent.
Manapa wrote:
Peter wrote:I would guess it has less to do with enlightenment, since both men and women can become arahant, and more to do with the teaching function of a sammasambuddha. In this we are talking not just of enlightenment but also of enlightenment relating to unenlightenment, teacher relating to student.
If that is the case I think what ever form the next Buddha will take will be the form most easily listened to, and understood.
...which might be a woman, considering that women have larger portions of their brains devoted towards speech.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

thecap wrote:
Peter wrote:we are still living during the age of the previous sammasambuddha. So looking around the the conditions of today's society is irrelevant.
Fair enough, bar the societal aspect for future self-enlightenment...
Why? The societal aspect will be just as relevant then as was when Gotama was born. My point is the societal aspect is probably the key to understanding why a Buddha will only be a man.

My other point is that since you and I can't know anything about what society will be like when the next Buddha arises we can't say what role gender will play. All you are doing is looking at our current society and saying "at this point in history gender doesn't seem to matter so much". And I agree with you. I just don't find it to be relevant to understanding future Buddhas.
there's still the biological aspect.
I am not aware of any biological difference between men and women which would preclude one form becoming a sammasambuddha. Nor am I aware of any teaching of the Buddha which describes a biological difference. There is, however, societal differences.
And regardless of that, the human mind is still equally disposed independent of gender, isn't it?
Maybe, maybe not. Various studies have shown differences in mental functioning between genders. Discussion of these studies are probably beyond the scope of this forum.
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Jason
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Honestly, I find this entire topic confounding from a Theravadin standpoint. To begin with, you have people who declare Theravada Buddhism to be a philosophy, religion, or ethical way of life free from any form of discrimination. These people claim that everything the Buddha taught was true, and that everything he said is exactly the way it is. Moreover, these people often state that the commentaries faithfully represent the Buddha's message. Whatever he said, whether it appears to contradict this assumption or not, must be taken at face value. Therefore, teachings that state a woman is incapable of becoming a Fully Awakened Buddha are taken to mean that women are incapable of ever achieving this level of spiritual attainment, and at least one commentary states that, "The masculine sex is superior, the women inferior" (Pe Maung Tin, The Expositor, 420).

What I find so bizarre and contradictory is that the assertion is made that gender is nothing more than a conventional distinction, one that contains no inherent meaning or reality; however, you find teachings stating that "women" are unable to do something spiritually that "men" are capable of doing. If this is true, then for what reason is a woman, or a stream of consciousness in the form of a woman, unable to do become a samma-sambuddha? If it merely depends upon your level of accomplishment through aeons of effort, I do not see what would prevent a woman, or a stream of consciousness in the form of a woman, after developing the perfections and being reborn countless times while doing so in all the realms of existence, finally taking rebirth as a female and bringing back the Dhamma to the world after it has died out completely.

It could very well be, as Peter has suggested, that the reason the Buddha said this was due to the societal conditions at that time. Perhaps the Buddha himself never said that women are inferior to men, or in other words, that being born as a woman is inferior to being born as a man; nevertheless, you have commentarial literature stating that this is indeed the case. So even if the Buddha himself did not say this, that is the way it is interpreted in the "classical" Theravada Tradition in which the entire Tipitaka and its commentaries are considered authoritative. My opinion is that an element of sexism may have found its way into the interpretation of the Buddha's words recorded in the Pali Canon, and that this is not as unlikely as it sounds considering that these teachings have been transmitted through a predominately patriarchal society for almost 2,600 years.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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kowtaaia
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kowtaaia »

Elohim wrote:... Perhaps the Buddha himself never said that women are inferior to men...
Ya think? :) Of course, the Buddha never said that. Awakening has nothing to do with gender.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Another thing I thought I would mention is that this idea that only a man can become a samma-sambuddha may have arisen in relation to the idea that the Buddha possessed all "thirty-two marks of a great man." One of the marks is said to be "the part which should be concealed by garments, is covered by a bag," which is interpreted to mean that the penis is sheathed and can be drawn into the body and remain there. Obviously, the mark of having a sheathed penis would exclude women. Nevertheless, I do not take these marks to be a literally description of the Buddha himself. For example, I have always found MN 140 interesting in that the wanderer Pukkusati did not immediately recognize the Buddha when he saw him, but only realized who he was after hearing him teach a profound discourse on four determinations and the six properties of experience. That is hard to imagine if the Buddha literally possessed all thirty-two marks. To me, it is obvious that these marks were metaphorical (i.e., representative of various characters and qualities) or the result of psychic powers (i.e., visions that were given certain brahmins and wanderers who accepted the ancient Indian tradition regarding the "thirty-two marks of a great man"), and were used by the Buddha and the Sangha to entice certain brahmins and wanderers who accepted the ancient Indian tradition regarding the "thirty-two marks of a great man" to learn the Dhamma. In other words, it was just clever marketing.
Last edited by Jason on Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jechbi
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jechbi »

Let's not lose sight of the full context of the Discourse on Many Elements. There are other things, according to it, that it is impossible for a woman to do:
It is impossible that a woman should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is possible that a man should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One. It is impossible that a woman should be the Universal Monarch It is possible that a man should be the Universal Monarch. It is impossible that a woman should be the King of Gods. It is possible that a man should be the King of Gods. It is impossible that a woman should be the King of Death. It is possible that a man should be the King of Death. It is impossible that a woman should be Brahma. It is possible that a man should be Brahma.
I think it would be useful, if possible, to know more about the circumstances surrounding this particular discourse to the bhikkhus, and whether there are any similar discourses that might help us understanding the uses of the term "man" and "woman" in this context, and if there is some meaning here that we might be prone to overlook because we are distracted by (important and relevant) issues of gender equality.

Calling Pali canon scholars. Come in please. You are needed here.

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