psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Bonsai
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Bonsai »

Altar, you left out a fundamental part of the fifth precept.

"I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."

If the drugs prevent carelessness (seeing things, hearing voices, wild imaginations), then I don't see how they are against the 5th precept.

I am also getting the impression in my readings that Buddha wasn't concerned with making a thousand little rules to govern people's lives. These precepts were meant to help them follow the middle way. For example, there is a difference between drinking once on your birthday and drinking everyday to drown out your problems. I am not saying the first does not come from craving just as the latter does, but Buddha didn't seem concerned much with making rules for the smallest of cravings. If he was, then we probably would have 1000+ precepts.

Moderation is key. And if you are mentally ill, and drugs can bring back some sense of sanity, then I think Buddha would have approved.
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mikenz66
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Laura,

What you say is completely relevant. Medicine is not considered a breach of precepts, and, to take a reasonably common and non-controversial example, if a Bhikkhu has certain health problems and is advised by a doctor to eat in the evening it is not considered a breach of his precept to not eat after noon.

altar's claims that current treatments for certain problems are not particularly helpful may well be true, but I see no point in getting involved in such a discussion on a Buddhist forum any more than I want to get involved with debates on global warming. The helpfulness/correctness or not of these things is a technical matter, not a matter of Buddhist practise. [This is just my choice. Others, of course, are welcome to discuss such things...]

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pink_trike
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by pink_trike »

Bonsai wrote:
"I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."

If the drugs prevent carelessness (seeing things, hearing voices, wild imaginations), then I don't see how they are against the 5th precept.

Moderation is key. And if you are mentally ill, and drugs can bring back some sense of sanity, then I think Buddha would have approved.
Hi Laura,

I just have to note here that seeing things, hearing voices, wild imagination, unmanageable levels of fear, etc...aren't "carelessness"...they are a medical disorder - sometimes genetic, sometimes due to environmental toxins, sometimes related to severely dysfunctional family situations, some due to unknown causes...many factors that can't be described as "carelessness". I only comment because someone reading this that is/has experience with any of the many serious mind/emotion medical disorders might feel blamed and responsible for their condition seeing it described as "carelessness".

I too think the Buddha would have approved of mindful medication use...what good are the precepts if there are shrieking voices in the mind, or if one believes that the CIA is following them and monitoring their communications? There are lots of problems associated with meds, but meds have also enabled countless thousands of people with mental dis-ease to function relatively normally. As a former psychotherapist I've met many of these people - their relief and gratitude for the meds is obvious.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

There are a few things worth noting.
1 - people react differently to different stimuli, acute for one person may not be for another:
2 - people have different ways of expressing themselves, and this can cause some confusion at times, in other words the meaning seams clear when it isn't, an example could be - I could say your an arse to 'Henry' and that could be misunderstood as friendly banter, but if I said it to 'Lisa', she could misunderstand and think I was sexually harassing, or insulting her, what is meant is not always exactly what is understood:
3 - the precepts say 'refrain', not 'thou shall not', we need to use Panna = wisdom; discernment; knowledge; insight, the first group of the eightfold paths three trainings, for the appropriate practice of Sila = morality:
4 - Both the medical professionals and the patients are human and prone to making mistakes in communication, and reaction, they have to work with what they have at hand:
5- people who are demonstrating, or going through an acute episode of a severe mental condition have demonstrated that they are less likely to benefit from mindfulness or acceptance training at the time, but have also demonstrated that if they have been given this training during milder phases or when the symptoms aren't present when the symptoms return the training has shown to be beneficial.
6 - Testing and communication between people from different backgrounds is demonstratively problematic, take IQ tests of African Americans as an example, the African American tests demonstrate a lower intelligence to white Americans and only when the wording was changed for the African American participants did the tests show a more equal IQ range.
7 - Even actions done under severe delussions have a kammic consequence, the consequenses are not likely to be as great as ones done with a sound mind, but these would fall (I think) under dark & bright kamma, with dark & bright results.
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Bonsai
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Bonsai »

pink_trike wrote:
Bonsai wrote:
"I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."

If the drugs prevent carelessness (seeing things, hearing voices, wild imaginations), then I don't see how they are against the 5th precept.

Moderation is key. And if you are mentally ill, and drugs can bring back some sense of sanity, then I think Buddha would have approved.
Hi Laura,

I just have to note here that seeing things, hearing voices, wild imagination, unmanageable levels of fear, etc...aren't "carelessness"...they are a medical disorder - sometimes genetic, sometimes due to environmental toxins, sometimes related to severely dysfunctional family situations, some due to unknown causes...many factors that can't be described as "carelessness". I only comment because someone reading this that is/has experience with any of the many serious mind/emotion medical disorders might feel blamed and responsible for their condition seeing it described as "carelessness".

I too think the Buddha would have approved of mindful medication use...what good are the precepts if there are shrieking voices in the mind, or if one believes that the CIA is following them and monitoring their communications? There are lots of problems associated with meds, but meds have also enabled countless thousands of people with mental dis-ease to function relatively normally. As a former psychotherapist I've met many of these people - their relief and gratitude for the meds is obvious.
Well, I have serious Anxiety and Depression issues which I take meds for, and I can definitely say (with my own experience) that they do cause carelessness. Now, maybe it's just me, but there have been many times that I haven't been 'careful' because of the way my mind works. I shouldn't have said that 'hearing voices and etc' were carelessness since you are right and the sick person isn't in control of them (outside of medications).They can definitely cause carelessness though.

Basically what I am saying is that you need mindfulness to practice Buddhism, and people with mental illnesses often lack mindfulness because of the way our minds work. If Drugs help you become mindful and sane, then I think Buddha would have approved (or at least not disagreed with). I think he was more concerned with people who abused intoxicants in his time and ours, not with people who took intoxicants in a modern world to keep them sane thousands of years down the line.

Of course I still have a lot more to learn. This is just the feeling I'm getting from reading through what Buddha said.
Last edited by Bonsai on Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

Bonsai wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
Bonsai wrote:
"I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness."

If the drugs prevent carelessness (seeing things, hearing voices, wild imaginations), then I don't see how they are against the 5th precept.

Moderation is key. And if you are mentally ill, and drugs can bring back some sense of sanity, then I think Buddha would have approved.
Hi Laura,

I just have to note here that seeing things, hearing voices, wild imagination, unmanageable levels of fear, etc...aren't "carelessness"...they are a medical disorder - sometimes genetic, sometimes due to environmental toxins, sometimes related to severely dysfunctional family situations, some due to unknown causes...many factors that can't be described as "carelessness". I only comment because someone reading this that is/has experience with any of the many serious mind/emotion medical disorders might feel blamed and responsible for their condition seeing it described as "carelessness".

I too think the Buddha would have approved of mindful medication use...what good are the precepts if there are shrieking voices in the mind, or if one believes that the CIA is following them and monitoring their communications? There are lots of problems associated with meds, but meds have also enabled countless thousands of people with mental dis-ease to function relatively normally. As a former psychotherapist I've met many of these people - their relief and gratitude for the meds is obvious.
Well, I have serious Anxiety and Depression issues which I take meds for, and I can definitely say (with my own experience) that they do cause carelessness. Now, maybe it's just me, but there have been many times that I haven't been 'careful' because of the way my mind works. I shouldn't have said that 'hearing voices and etc' were carelessness since you are right and the sick person isn't in control of them (outside of medications).They can definitely cause carelessness though.

Basically what I am saying is that you need mindfulness to practice Buddhism, and people with mental illnesses often lack mindfulness because of the way our minds work. If Drugs help you become mindful and sane, then I think Buddha would have approved (or at least not disagreed with). I think he was more concerned with people who abused intoxicants in his time and ours, not with people who took intoxicants in a modern world to keep them sane thousands of years down the line.
:anjali:
the only think I would really alter in this is (original underlined), I think the Buddha was concerned with the use of things which cause heedlesness (lack of mindfulness and or concern) and used in a recreational manner, not medication.
edit - and I'm not 100% sure if this is disagreeing in anyway (so to speak)
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Bonsai
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Bonsai »

Yes, I agree. I definitely phrased it wrong, since it sounds like Buddha was obsessed with morals in and of themselves rather than a doctor who gets to the heart of the problem (First two noble truths).
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by PeterB »

tiltbillings wrote:The above and this thread http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2963" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; make it quite clear that the TOS in place here on DhammaWheel are appropriate.
Completely appropriate in my view. It is not my intention to rehash old battles, but there was a period of time on E sangha when psychiatric advice was handed out freely by anyone who felt so inclined. Some of it very scary indeed. That stopped partly as a result of very timely action from Ben when he was a mod there.
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

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pink_trike wrote:Hi Laura,

I just have to note here that seeing things, hearing voices, wild imagination, unmanageable levels of fear, etc...aren't "carelessness"...they are a medical disorder - sometimes genetic, sometimes due to environmental toxins, sometimes related to severely dysfunctional family situations, some due to unknown causes...many factors that can't be described as "carelessness". I only comment because someone reading this that is/has experience with any of the many serious mind/emotion medical disorders might feel blamed and responsible for their condition seeing it described as "carelessness".
[snip]
Hi PT,

I think Bonsai wrote that. It wouldn't occur to me to suggest that a person with any sort of mental illness is to blame for it.

:namaste:
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by LauraJ »

PeterB wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The above and this thread http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2963" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; make it quite clear that the TOS in place here on DhammaWheel are appropriate.
Completely appropriate in my view. It is not my intention to rehash old battles, but there was a period of time on E sangha when psychiatric advice was handed out freely by anyone who felt so inclined. Some of it very scary indeed. That stopped partly as a result of very timely action from Ben when he was a mod there.
I remember you speaking up about that in a number of threads when people were being told they don't need medications.
I was grateful that you intervened and at times even advocated for patients.

:namaste:
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by PeterB »

Yes I remember your helpful input too Laura, there was one chap in particular who had read a book or two on Aryuveda and on that basis felt able tell to people to come off all meds ( which can result in convulsions ) and do Medicine Buddha practice instead. It was very good that Ben among others, stepped in.
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by LauraJ »

PeterB wrote:Yes I remember your helpful input too Laura, there was one chap in particular who had read a book or two on Aryuveda and on that basis felt able tell to people to come off all meds ( which can result in convulsions ) and do Medicine Buddha practice instead. It was very good that Ben among others, stepped in.
I do recall those specific incidents. Scary stuff :shock:
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Monkey Mind »

Medicine during Buddha's time period involved consuming a lot of hash and drinking elixirs that were highly alcoholic. So when we read suttas about monks who are severely ill, and "bravely" declining the medicine of the day, and thus receiving Buddha's praise... I think we have to consider the cultural context. It is also worth noting that 1) these were monks, not lay people; and 2) the hospice care they received from their monastic community was probably far superior to the quality of health care today. In other words, "don't try this at home".
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Dhammanando »

Monkey Mind wrote:Medicine during Buddha's time period involved consuming a lot of hash and drinking elixirs that were highly alcoholic.
The accounts of medicine in the Vinaya Pitaka seem to indicate that the early sangha availed itself of a much more varied pharmacopia than this.
So when we read suttas about monks who are severely ill, and "bravely" declining the medicine of the day, and thus receiving Buddha's praise... I think we have to consider the cultural context.
In which suttas are such episodes reported?

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Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

Manapa wrote:So if it is necessary then Yes! beside the fact medicines are not a breach of the precept, and even alcohol can be taken in some instances according to the vinaya (I have been told but not seen this specific exception to clarify its usage.
Hi Bhante,
Could you clarify where this is! I do believe it is the case the Alcohol is diluted but?

Thank-you
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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