psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Dhammanando
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Could you clarify where this is! I do believe it is the case the Alcohol is diluted but?
See Ven Thanissaro's account of the 51st paacittiya rule, which gives all the sources:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-6.html

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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Cittasanto
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Could you clarify where this is! I do believe it is the case the Alcohol is diluted but?
See Ven Thanissaro's account of the 51st paacittiya rule, which gives all the sources:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... h08-6.html

Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Thanks Bhante!
Nice to see your name on the new posts board again! hope you had a good sabbatical from the computer!
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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chownah
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by chownah »

There are lots of different psychiatric drugs and people in general react differently to each of them and take them for different reasons and expect different effects so it doesn't make sense that there could be an answer that would blanket the issue conclusively. I think a good Theravadin approach to this is for each person to decide if taking the drug leads to dispassion and not to passion, if it leads to equanimity and not agitation, etc......or does not taking the drug lead in the right direction.....
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by PeterB »

There are of course other alternatives for some people with some Mental Health conditions. Certainly in Europe ( which is the situation best known to me ) an eclectic model is emerging which uses medication and/or other forms of intervention. There was a time in the seventies and early eighties when the prescription pad was kept very close to hand, but, in Europe at least that is changing and has been for some time. Of course as has aready been said, it the question also needs to be asked how much dispassion and equanimity is likely to be experienced by a sufferer from Schizophrenia or Bipolar Disorder if they are unmedicated ? The answer is for many, not much at all.
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Cittasanto
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

for the last two posts :anjali: Sadhu :anjali:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Annapurna
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Annapurna »

altar wrote:Hello, all,
This post is about taking psychiatric drugs (for instance antipsychotics or anti-depressants) and the fifth precept, which is to abstain from intoxicants. I don't know if someone can reach a conclusive "yes," "no," answer to this, but it could be discussed.
I know relatively less about anti-depressants than antipsychotics. But for those who don't know about antipsychotics, I'll put down some of their common effects. I won't distinguish between so-called side effects and main effects, because one doesn't get to choose which effects one gets, I'll just put down the common ones: Loss of energy, hallucinations, racing thoughts, dullness, anxiety, sleepiness, weight gain, perkiness, energy, less racing thoughts, less hallucinations, movement abnormalities, hunger, increased libido, decreased libido, mood alterations... these are the main ones I think...
I think this sila is based on cultivation of inner awakeness, non-negligence and laziness, the ability to be shameful and competent and moral and restrained, overcoming dependency on outside stimulants, and renunciation.
Coffee is accepted almost universally, I think, and that is an outside stimulant, but if it is used excessively to that effect, it might be considered a breach. These drugs, when used for stimulus, are generally quite potent, I think, so unless used with extreme moderation would likewise be a breach. Sometimes the drugs might appear to keep one more restrained, but I actually think if anything the opposite, even in those cases where it appears so. I think this because if one simply dulls their mind to prevent anger for instance from taking hold, it is not using restraint at all. One who develops restraint does so on the mental level.
It is kind of like the case of the monk who cut off his penis and the Buddha said he cut off the wrong thing.
Zack

Zack,

cancer patients also suffer from the side-effects of chemotherapy, and they are severe, believe me, and there is no guarantee it will heal them, sometimes it does, sometimes it increases the suffering.

Even a flu shot can make you ill.

It's the best to accept a disease, the therapies and also their side effects.

This is earth, a location of suffering, and nobody promised us a rose garden.

Violent schizophrenics aren't exactly fun either, nor the trouble they pose...so I agree with the above posts..

Seeking out alternative treatments in symptom free times to prevent a relapse is a good idea. Have you found therapies that look promising, or have first hand experience?
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Annapurna »

Monkey Mind wrote:Medicine during Buddha's time period involved consuming a lot of hash and drinking elixirs that were highly alcoholic. So when we read suttas about monks who are severely ill, and "bravely" declining the medicine of the day, and thus receiving Buddha's praise... I think we have to consider the cultural context. It is also worth noting that 1) these were monks, not lay people; and 2) the hospice care they received from their monastic community was probably far superior to the quality of health care today. In other words, "don't try this at home".
The Buddha also consulted a doctor: Jīvaka Komārabhacca .

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Mothra
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Mothra »

I'm so tired of people using the "mental illness is like diabetes or cancer" argument. That analogy is not true. Quotes from this article say it better than I can:

"For example, a defect in a person's visual field may be satisfactorily explained by correlating it with certain definite lesions in the nervous system. On the other hand, a person's belief -- whether this be a belief in Christianity, in Communism, or in the idea that his internal organs are "rotting" and that his body is, in fact, already "dead" -- cannot be explained by a defect or disease of the nervous system."

"Let me therefore say once more that my aim in presenting this argument was expressly to criticize and counter a prevailing contemporary tendency to deny the moral aspects of psychiatry (and psychotherapy) and to substitute for them allegedly value-free medical considerations. "

The full article is at http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was written in 1960 by a psychiatrist. The title might sound provocative but the argument is fairly plain and eloquent. There's not enough reasonable (scientologists and new age gurus don't count) argument out there about the dangers of psychiatry as it is practiced today. You have prepubescent kids being prescribed things for ADD and Autism, older kids whose grades slip and they are diagnosed ADD and medicated. Not to mention the countless prescriptions for antidepressants and antianxiety medications. It is uncompassionate to thrust the suffering and vulnerable into the hands of psychiatry so that "their disease can be cured". It should be reserved for only the most extreme cases (like the TOS talks about), which is only a (small?) part of the amount of patients being treated.
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altar
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by altar »

Hi,
I don't think these drugs can be compared to other more physical related illness remedies for a few reasons, one in particular related to sila: These drugs are taken with the intention of altering the mind.
As for the effectiveness and harmfulness of these drugs in general, this is not quite as related, but still relevant.
This is a good article on the subject. http://www.scribd.com/doc/19458201/The- ... t-Whitaker" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also askapatient.com is a good source of user reports, there are thousands.
Another reason these drugs are more suspicious than physical ones is that they cause a host of effects that indicate some mental change, maybe more-so than any physical-related remedy.
Lastly, these drugs are introducing a physical change, however there is no observed physical abnormality. Actually, it is observed that at least some of these drugs create physical abnormalities.
I think sila is individual and circumstantial to a certain extent but here I think too many allowances are made.
So, there you go,have a good day..
Zack
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Cittasanto
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Cittasanto »

couple of points!
The fifth precept is specific about the drugs effects i.e. leads to carelessness, not specifying drugs used to remedy conditions which cause people to act carelessly, or in a dangerous manner!
all drugs have side effects, some more than others, and I will refer back to my initial post
what its it for?
why is it being prescribed?
what are the risks both if prescribed and if not?
what are the known effects?
do the benefits out way the disadvantages?
Just because someone disagrees with their use because of side effects does not mean they are a breach of the precepts, I know many people who would not be able to function without medication and the side effects to them are a small price to pay.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Annapurna
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by Annapurna »

Mothra wrote:I'm so tired of people using the "mental illness is like diabetes or cancer" argument. That analogy is not true.
Mothra, I'm a certified practitioner of traditional and alternative healing arts since over 20 years now.

Before anything manifests on a physical level there was ignorance, disharmony and suffering in the mind and "soul",= "wrong thinking", hate, fear, depression, a lack of harmony, mindfulness, depletion of strenght and abuse of the body and mind with all that entails. And it may stem from previous lives.

It would lead too far to share the complete experience, it's stuff for books.

But ill is ill.

A mentally ill person suffers just as much if not more than a physically ill person.

All illness is suffering, no matter if the level is physical or immaterial, more: Body and mind are mirrors of each other.

To disconnect them is insane, to miss their interconnectedness ignorant.

So, my approach is holistic.

Whether it is a disharmony manifesting in the body or in the mind -it springs from the same root. In the largest meaning of the word it is ignorance of what will cause suffering.

And that root is the game I pursuit.

And it may be a person's karma to be sickly..

If you need suttas, let me know.







.
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altar
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by altar »

Annabel,
I think this is an interesting sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In it there is a monk, Tissa, who seems to be experiencing what is often called mental illness. The Buddha gives him a teaching on anatta, and says a false path, ignorance, sensual desires, and anger are the obstacles. I'm not suggesting this is absolutely the definite approach to all people diagnosed with mental illness. But I think it is interesting.
I don't think Mothra was saying that mental illnesses don't entail suffering. I think with the article he wanted to question our notion of mental illness, and also wanted to say that the kinds of comparisons being made here between mental things and physical things like cancer or a broken limb aren't really fair. I don't think his suggestion is so much that the mind and body are mutually exclusive. I think the suggestion is more along the lines of, things like anger, aversion, paranoia, awareness, normally considered to be mental--though they may have physical causes or cause things to happen physically--are being linked unfairly with things that are physical--like a bump, an outgrowth of the body, tooth decay, tonsilitus, a fever--even though these things may have mental implications.
What I briefly got into was that these drugs are often promoted as correcting chemical imbalances in the brain. However, I read that no chemical imbalances have been observed. The drugs simply alter the way certain chemicals function, creating new imbalances, which alter behavior and states, etc. Over time they can alter brain structure. I think there are various implications one can draw from these things. I am not suggesting that chemicals can't influence the mind, or the minds changes won't make chemicals do different things.
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Altar,
altar wrote: I think this is an interesting sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In it there is a monk, Tissa, who seems to be experiencing what is often called mental illness. ...
Do you really take this description to be "mental illness"? It seems like normal problems-on-the-path to me...
On that occasion Ven. Tissa, the Blessed One's paternal cousin, told a large number of monks, "Friends, it's as if my body is drugged. I've lost my bearings. Things aren't clear to me. My mind keeps being overwhelmed with sloth & torpor. I lead the holy life dissatisfied. I have uncertainty about the teachings."
Metta
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altar
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by altar »

What I think is that if modern doctors heard such symptoms, it is highly probable that they would diagnose a form of mental illness and prescribe drugs for that person.
I also think that if a person came to this forum and described such things, it is probable, at least not unlikely, that it would be suggested they have a mental illness, see a doctor, or consider taking drugs.
[As to what is actually going on... whether what Tissa is going through on a more internal and causal level can be compared to someone who is experiencing similar troubles however not due to rough-goings in the path, this I don't know.]
Last edited by altar on Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: psychiatric drugs and the fifth precept

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi altar,

Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree. What's in that sutta would, I think, be considered quite normal at an intensive retreat...

And people do come here and say similar things...

Metta
Mike
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