Dear Element, that is in fact how the AN Book of Fours #95 describes the four types of individuals. The one who practices for personal attainment [and later?] helps others to their personal attainment, is the formost individual. Thanissaro Bhikkhu only went as far as the first three types of individuals (in order): the one who does not practice for personal attainment or for the welfare of others, the one who sacrifices his/her attainment for the welfare of others, and the one who practices for his/her own attainment.Element wrote:Hi Zamiszamis wrote:This essay tells us what we should already know, individual attainment is essential. Attainment in morality, concentration, and wisdom: the seeing of suffering, its origin, its cessation, and perfecting the path to its cessation. A handful of simsapa leaves.
For me, the article was an extreme view.
The article is correct in that our priority is individual attainment. This is the foremost attainment.
However, once attained, one naturally will give a priority to helping others.
Buddha said in MN 8: "One stuck in the mud cannot pull another out of the mud. That is impossible".
With metta
Element
Against the Flow
Re: Against the Flow
"Therefore Ananda, live with yourself as an island, yourself as a refuge, there is no other Refuge. With the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, there is no other Refuge." (DN 16)
Re: Against the Flow
No, the point I underscored... and you apparently missed... is that not everyone who engages in dhamma discussion is engaging in "designer" or "fluffy" Buddhism and not everyone who feels aversion to dhamma discussion is "going against the flow". Sometimes rudeness is just rudeness.zamis wrote:this is more subtle but a point you've helped underscore.
- Peter
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Against the Flow
Hi all,
Sometimes I think we can loose perspective a little when it comes to our speculations about what is and what is not effective Dhamma practice. The Buddha represents the culmination of a beautiful and effective principle which we can all engage with to varying degrees. We could say objectively that this principle appears to be flowering more in one individual than in another and we could also say that some people appear a bit closer to what we see as its culmination. What I think is not really helpful is when we denigrate the uplifting and transformative effects which percolate down from the awakened beings. When a being like the Historical Buddha reaches the final release and knows the Deathless He/She lifts up all those who begin to have faith in the possibility of release. This includes those who go on nurturing their children and cultivating a healthy and secure lay community. The Buddha Gives the world meaning and shows the fundamental principle at work. When a being goes forth into complete renunciation and still exhibits a happy and uplifting manner all of us who have confidence in the reality of this happiness naturally begin to loosen our attachments in accordance with that confidence. This just naturally occurs. Simply having confidence in those who renounce is effective Dhamma practice. Likewise all the stuff some would denigrate as "designer" or "fluffy" Buddhism can be effective on many levels especially in connection with a degree of this confidence. We need Buddhas like flowers need Sun and if you are in a position to work on becoming one then please do it. Its a wast of time to belittle the flowers for not being the sunshine.
Metta
Gabriel
Sometimes I think we can loose perspective a little when it comes to our speculations about what is and what is not effective Dhamma practice. The Buddha represents the culmination of a beautiful and effective principle which we can all engage with to varying degrees. We could say objectively that this principle appears to be flowering more in one individual than in another and we could also say that some people appear a bit closer to what we see as its culmination. What I think is not really helpful is when we denigrate the uplifting and transformative effects which percolate down from the awakened beings. When a being like the Historical Buddha reaches the final release and knows the Deathless He/She lifts up all those who begin to have faith in the possibility of release. This includes those who go on nurturing their children and cultivating a healthy and secure lay community. The Buddha Gives the world meaning and shows the fundamental principle at work. When a being goes forth into complete renunciation and still exhibits a happy and uplifting manner all of us who have confidence in the reality of this happiness naturally begin to loosen our attachments in accordance with that confidence. This just naturally occurs. Simply having confidence in those who renounce is effective Dhamma practice. Likewise all the stuff some would denigrate as "designer" or "fluffy" Buddhism can be effective on many levels especially in connection with a degree of this confidence. We need Buddhas like flowers need Sun and if you are in a position to work on becoming one then please do it. Its a wast of time to belittle the flowers for not being the sunshine.
Metta
Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
Re: Against the Flow
Dear Peter,Peter wrote:No, the point I underscored... and you apparently missed... is that not everyone who engages in dhamma discussion is engaging in "designer" or "fluffy" Buddhism and not everyone who feels aversion to dhamma discussion is "going against the flow". Sometimes rudeness is just rudeness.zamis wrote:this is more subtle but a point you've helped underscore.
Nowhere did I say everyone. This discussion was not intended for rudeness. I apologize to everyone I've offended with this confrontational, unfriendly and rude post.
"Therefore Ananda, live with yourself as an island, yourself as a refuge, there is no other Refuge. With the Teaching as an island, the Teaching as a refuge, there is no other Refuge." (DN 16)