The Dawkins Dilemma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

I can tell you from first-hand experience Dawkins has very little insight into human nature.

Several years go, he came to the University of Tennessee at Knoxville (my former home town) to debate Creationism with a Fundamentalist. The audience was loaded with about a hundred Fundamentalists and maybe--MAYBE 25 members of the East Tennessee Rationalists. Dawkins was his usual contemptuous self. The Fundamentalist was handsome, charming, and persuasive. Needless to say--people being what they are--The Fundie carried the majority of the crowd. The majority of people are not swayed by logic, unfortunately, but by personality. Proof: democracy.

Understand I grew up in the very heart of where evolution was outlawed. I was weaned a veritable stone's throw from the courthouse where the gavel rang down on Darwin's skull. They ordered us, "Stop evolving!" and we did. There was no enlightenment to be found there this day. Dawkins was in ill temper. He left the building after this debate growling at the crowd. Outside the building were people carrying signs saying things like "We were not desented (sic) from monkees!" "God made us in his Loveing image." Dawkins stopped on his way to the car and SCREAMED at the crowd. They screamed back. Security was inadequate to hold back the hundred or so people trying to get to him. He yelled, "You unevolved, ignorant APES!"

The crowd broke through the security and almost got to him. Fortunately, the security barely got him into the car, but believe it or not, they had to practically shove him inside. He would have stood there yelling at the mob until they dragged him off, and I'm sure, beat him to death or lynched him. I'm convinced he was so clueless about the type of people with whom he was dealing, he thought they would stand there exchanging badinage, when in reality he was smack in the middle of an enraged lynch mob. He was ten seconds away from losing his life. Proof? About a year ago, later, a Fundamentalist entered a Unitarian church in Knoxville with a semiautomatic rifle and opened fire on the congregation, his rationale the cleansing of lesbians, gays, atheists, wiccans and other "abominations." There are many more instances. Passions, alas, run deep on these issues.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Kim OHara
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by Kim OHara »

Thanks for the story.
The only other response that comes to mind is, 'Wow!'
:cookoo:

Kim
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BlackBird
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by BlackBird »

Thanks Bubbabuddhist, great story.
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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PeterB
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by PeterB »

A good insight, but not surprising to we in the UK who see him regularly on TV when not reading prepared statements or sparring with journos. His intellect is of a high order. His emotional IQ is very low. He comes across like someone with high end Aspergers. Think the guy in The Big Bang Theory...obviously that is an exaggeration for comic effect , but Dawkins does have that same air of being baffled in the face of emotion and the whole affective side of functioning. When faced with the human need for meaning other than that reducible to maths, he goes into angry meltdown.
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Dan74
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by Dan74 »

When faced with the human need for meaning other than that reducible to maths
What do you mean "other than"? :shrug:

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PeterB
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by PeterB »

Sorry, I am not sure that I understand the question.
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Unfortunately you encounter this quite a bit with self-defined "rationalists;" an inability to connect with people on an emotional level. Hence they feel people can be relegated to ciphers and are quantifiable. When you refuse to acknowledge a person's individuality--not only as a human being but as a collection of beliefs, opinions, experiences and fallibility-- there will be frustration--on both sides.

I bow in awe to the human mystery. :tongue:

J
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Dan74
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by Dan74 »

PeterB wrote:Sorry, I am not sure that I understand the question.
Just a joke at my own expense (I am a mathematician).

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pink_trike
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by pink_trike »

Bubbabuddhist wrote:I can tell you from first-hand experience Dawkins has very little insight into human nature.

Several years go, he came to the University of Tennessee at Knoxville (my former home town) to debate Creationism with a Fundamentalist. The audience was loaded with about a hundred Fundamentalists and maybe--MAYBE 25 members of the East Tennessee Rationalists. Dawkins was his usual contemptuous self. The Fundamentalist was handsome, charming, and persuasive. Needless to say--people being what they are--The Fundie carried the majority of the crowd. The majority of people are not swayed by logic, unfortunately, but by personality. Proof: democracy.

Understand I grew up in the very heart of where evolution was outlawed. I was weaned a veritable stone's throw from the courthouse where the gavel rang down on Darwin's skull. They ordered us, "Stop evolving!" and we did. There was no enlightenment to be found there this day. Dawkins was in ill temper. He left the building after this debate growling at the crowd. Outside the building were people carrying signs saying things like "We were not desented (sic) from monkees!" "God made us in his Loveing image." Dawkins stopped on his way to the car and SCREAMED at the crowd. They screamed back. Security was inadequate to hold back the hundred or so people trying to get to him. He yelled, "You unevolved, ignorant APES!"

The crowd broke through the security and almost got to him. Fortunately, the security barely got him into the car, but believe it or not, they had to practically shove him inside. He would have stood there yelling at the mob until they dragged him off, and I'm sure, beat him to death or lynched him. I'm convinced he was so clueless about the type of people with whom he was dealing, he thought they would stand there exchanging badinage, when in reality he was smack in the middle of an enraged lynch mob. He was ten seconds away from losing his life. Proof? About a year ago, later, a Fundamentalist entered a Unitarian church in Knoxville with a semiautomatic rifle and opened fire on the congregation, his rationale the cleansing of lesbians, gays, atheists, wiccans and other "abominations." There are many more instances. Passions, alas, run deep on these issues.

J
True, true. I lived in Georgia and South Carolina and have seen crowds of those people waving their bibles and misspelled signs with their faces contorted in hate and rage - veins popping out of their head and neck, fire pouring out of them. You really have to experience it to understand the depth and intensity and the potential for danger .
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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5heaps
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by 5heaps »

Dhammabodhi wrote:Is the peace one experiences through meditation just a 'security blanket' which is self-decieving? I know there is no straightforward answer
Yes there is: no.
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Prasadachitta
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by Prasadachitta »

Dhammabodhi wrote:
I'd like to know what you think about the approach he advocates and how and why should we reject it to follow a Buddhist path? Is the peace one experiences through meditation just a 'security blanket' which is self-decieving? I know there is no straightforward answer to this but I'd appreciate your views.

Hi Dhammabodhi,

I have listened to the talk you posted and read a bit of Dawkins in the past but I am not exactly clear on what the "approach" he advocates is. His critique is very simple and not all that helpful. The religious inclinations of people are an easy target of ridicule and yet there they remain. I do not expect people like Dawkins to make much if any impact on their lives. I am not at all impressed. This does not mean that I disagree. This about covers it for me.

May all beings make whatever movement they can however small towards happiness. May their happiness support and sustain a momentum towards the ending of all the causes of unhappiness. May all beings know the freedom which arises from direct knowledge of the eternal truth.

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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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mikenz66
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dhammabodhi,
Dhammabodhi wrote: Is the peace one experiences through meditation just a 'security blanket' which is self-decieving? I know there is no straightforward answer to this but I'd appreciate your views.
Sure it can be a security blanket. That peace is just a tool, not the goal. It can be very pleasant to spend retreat time sitting in peaceful states. One needs to remember use the mindfulness and concentration one builds in such states for insight, not use the peace as a goal.

Metta
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Dhammabodhi
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Re: The Dawkins Dilemma

Post by Dhammabodhi »

Hi all,

I'm sorry for not replying earlier to your comments, I took a self-imposed hiatus from Dhammawheel, it had become addictive. Thank you all for your views and replies. I've moved past my vicikicca, and for now I'm ready to use a "faith+verification" appproach to dhamma.

@Mike: Thanks for making me realize a crucial point, I have become a bit attached to the peace that I experienced in my meditation and subconsciously placed it as my goal. Your post shook me out of my delusion. :anjali:

Much thanks and metta to all and wish everyone a happy and prosperous new year,
Dhammabodhi
"Take rest, take rest."-S.N.Goenka
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