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Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma - Dhamma Wheel

Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Bankei
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Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:08 pm

I wonder why monks of one nikaya won't hold any sanghakamma, such as Patimokkha or ordination ceremonies, with members of another nikaya. For example in Thailand members of the Mahanikaya and Dhammayutika nikaya will jointly chant at funerals etc, but they will not hold sanghakamma together.

Why is this so?

Bankei
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Bankei

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Cittasanto
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:21 pm

I believe in come from how they interpret the Sanghakamma is to be done, and one group believes the other is too loose with their interpretation, or goes by comentarial interpretations which don't always match the interpretation they derive from the Vinaya? but it would or could also depend on other things I suppose.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Bankei
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:10 pm

Yes that is a good point. In Thailand the Mahanikaya and Dhammayut do ordinations slightly different, including the wording of some parts of it.

But what about the chanting of the Patimokkha. I think that should be the same for all Theravada Nikaya.

Maybe they don't do this together because they don't believe in the validity of the other's ordination?

Bankei
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Bankei

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karuna_murti
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby karuna_murti » Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:18 pm

I've seen both nikayas sit on the same seat on certain occasions. If each think the other nikaya is not valid, I don't think they will give Dhamma talk on that occasions.

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cooran
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Hello bankei,

A little info.:
Monastic divisions
Among the Theravāda nations of Southeast Asia and Sri Lanka, nikāya is also used as the term for a monastic division or lineage; these groupings are also sometimes called "monastic fraternities" or "frateries". Nikāyas may emerge among monastic groupings as a result of royal or government patronage (such as the Dhammayuttika Nikāya of Thailand, due to the national origin of their ordination lineage (the Siyam Nikāya of Sri Lanka), because of differences in the interpretation of the monastic code, or due to other factors (such as the Amarapura Nikāya in Sri Lanka, which emerged as a reaction to caste restrictions within the Siyam Nikāya).
These divisions do not rise to the level of forming separate sects within the Theravāda tradition, because they do not typically follow different doctrines or monastic codes, nor do these divisions extend to the laity.
http://www.answers.com/topic/nikaya

metta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:47 am


Bankei
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:53 am

Hi Bhante and thank you for the reply.

Do you know what happens to visiting monks when the Patimokkha is chanted? I believe that there are various different types of Siima and that, usually, the whole temple is within one type of siima. Those monks present within the siima but not participating will invalidate it. If they were to hold their own sanghakhama wouldn't that be the definition of a sanghabheda?

Many years ago I went to Wat Pa Nanachat with 2 Dhammayut monks and we were there during Patimokka time, but I don't know what happened to them. I recall they confessed to each other before leaving for the Wat and was told they did it because they were going to a Mahanikaya wat.

Bankei
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Dhammanando
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:35 pm


Bankei
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:25 am

Thank you again Bhante. Very interesting stuff.

Do you know what the situation is in the Wat Pah Pong group of temples? I have heard they do not perform sanghakamma with other outside monks of the same nikaya.

Thanks

Bankei
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Dhammanando
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:41 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:20 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Bankei
Posts: 430
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:28 am

Thanks again Bhante

And Manapa, I heard a slightly different version. That is Ajahn Chah wanted to reordain into the Dhammayut, but Ajahn Mun said he should stay as a Mahanikaya monks as it didn't really matter what Nikaya one was in.

Babkei

ps. Also interesting to see that a lot of Western monks have reordained from one Nikaya into another.
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Bankei

Bankei
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Bankei » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:30 am

Sorry Manapa, what I wrote was similar to your second point.
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Bankei

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Cittasanto
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Re: Different Nikaya and Sanghakamma

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:05 am

not a worry


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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