Why did you choose Theravada?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:49 am

pink_trike wrote:

Too busy right now, and its irrelevant to me whether he lived or not. If it matters to you, do the research (outside of institutional Buddhism).


emphasis added...

And, again, you do not address the question raised by me, which was not that the Buddha lived or not, but what "Sanskrit" scholars supposedly, accordinmg to you, said about it. Your refusal renders your claim meaningless.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:51 am

pink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.
I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim that
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:54 am

pink_trike wrote:No, I didn't offer any opinion about whether the Buddha ever existed or not.

I said that scholars aren't able to find sufficient evidence to support such a claim and are increasingly less willing to accept "facts" put forth by institutional Buddhism regarding the Buddha's existence.

I didn't say that there was any practices that supported the opinion of scholars. I said that it is irrelevant to me whether the Buddha actually lived or not...my interest is only in the practices and testing the teachings.


that is an opinion you shared, so where is your evidence for that?

if you share something it is you who backs it up, no one else, or I could easily say that Leonardo DaVinci, Alexander G. Bell, or Vlad Tepish never lived and are steriotypes of X. Y. & Z. or myths spread for A. B. & C. reason due to evidence I know but you need to go look for!

if it didn't matter why share it? you are the one who said

I'm interested in the practices and testing the teachings. Nothing more.

if it truly was nothing more then why bring up unsupported claims unrelated to the practice?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.
I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim that
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.

Since you are "well aware" of this ongoing debate (and I know that you are), then you proved my point and there is no need for me to back up my "claim" that there is a secular scholarly opinion that is skeptical of a buddha that actually lived.

Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.

Sheesh, really, guys...my saying that secular scholars are having a hard time finding your Buddha shouldn't be such a touchy subject.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:10 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.
I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim that
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.

Since you are "well aware" of this ongoing debate (and I know that you are), then you proved my point and there is no need for me to back up my "claim" that there is a secular scholarly opinion that is skeptical of a buddha that actually lived.

Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha.

I proved your point? Nice try, but not really the case. You made a claim, refused to back it up when asked and now you are stating I proved your point, but you still do not back up your claim that I proved your point or that
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
So far your claims are meaningless.

Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.
I am not asking you to debate whether there was an actual Buddha. I am asking you to back up your claim about "Sanskrit" scholars, which you are refusing to do, making your claim meaningless.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:I proved your point? Nice try, but not really the case. You made a claim, refused to back it up when asked and now you are stating I proved your point, but you still do not back up your claim that I proved your point or that
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
So far your claims are meaningless.

Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.
I am not asking you to debate whether there was an actual Buddha. I am asking you to back up your claim about "Sanskrit" scholars, which you are refusing to do, making your claim meaningless.


What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand? :tongue:

Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless. :jumping:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:29 am

pink_trike wrote:]

What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?

Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.

It is cheap talk to make such claims and then being "unwilling" - unable - to back them up. You are correct, your claims are baseless.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby Tex » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:31 am

Might this topic of the historical Buddha's existence be worth splitting off from the main topic, since both topics are worth continuing? Just a thought.

I'm not surprised to hear that there is debate over whether or not Gotama was a real person -- philosophers have speculated for ages that Socrates was not a real person, but rather a literary device employed by Plato in his dialogues. Since both Socrates and Gotama lived around 2500 years ago, and almost no one from 2500 years ago can be "proven" to have existed, I guess it makes sense.

Anyway, though I'm not surprised to learn of this debate, I must confess to knowing nothing about Sanskrit historical scholarship. And googling "Did Buddha exist" turns up a ridiculous amount of hits, most of which have nothing to do with the question, so if anyone can point me to some links dealing with this I'd be very curious to read more and would appreciate the guidance in advance.
"The serene and peaceful mind is the true epitome of human achievement."-- Ajahn Chah, Living Dhamma

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:32 am

Tex wrote:so if anyone can point me to some links dealing with this I'd be very curious to read more and would appreciate the guidance in advance.

Let us see what pink-trike can give us on this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:38 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:]

What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?

Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.

It is cheap talk to make such claims and then being "unwilling" - unable - to back them up. You are correct, your claims are baseless.

I have two turkeys in ovens, and am making a couple of pies. Shortly a whole bunch of friends and family who also don't care if there was a living buddha or not are going to start ringing the doorbell. Sorry if that's inconvenient for you...I understand you're in a big hurry, but that's hardly justification for calling my so-called claim "cheap" and saying I'm "unwilling". Get a grip...I have a life and that one line "claim" doesn't justify your reactive froth or the urgency you're bringing to this imaginary issue. Isn't right about now when you slam the topic shut?

Have a great holiday! :smile:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:49 am

pink_trike wrote:I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .

All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems. No one is anywhere close to asking you to drop everything to answer the question reasonably put to you. Very simply one could say: "I am very busy at this moment, but in a day or two when I have enough free time, I'll be more than happy to respond in detail." Very simply.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby Dan74 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pin-trike wrote:Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.


Back up your claim.


Here's something:

Lopez (1995). Buddhism in Practice. Princeton University Press. pp. 16

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:
I was just pointing out that without a very thorough understanding of how the Sutra was constructed, the specific use of metaphor and allegory, and more importantly, the cultural milieu within which it was constructed, it would be impossible to even consider the possibility of the grand conclusions you put forth.

Back up your claim.


Not my claim and I haven't read the Lotus Sutra but the above seems common sense to me. To understand a text it helps to understand the context.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .

All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems. No one is anywhere close to asking you to drop everything to answer the question reasonably put to you. Very simply one could say: "I am very busy at this moment, but in a day or two when I have enough free time, I'll be more than happy to respond in detail." Very simply.

Thank you for educating me on how I should respond when I'm busy. I didn't realize that "I'm too busy right now" was inadequate. Perhaps you might consider that barking "back up your claim." might be stated a bit differently. Maybe something along the lines of "That's very interesting. Could you provide some more details when you have time?". ;)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .

All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems.


LOL...you're persistently consistent. :rofl:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:15 am

Did a bit of a search round the internet, couldn't find much that wasn't marred with opinion, nothing factual in any case.

Buddha-denial
...and you thought rebirth-denial was bad...

:stirthepot:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby Reductor » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:17 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:]

What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?

Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.

It is cheap talk to make such claims and then being "unwilling" - unable - to back them up. You are correct, your claims are baseless.

I have two turkeys in ovens, and am making a couple of pies. Shortly a whole bunch of friends and family who also don't care if there was a living buddha or not are going to start ringing the doorbell. Sorry if that's inconvenient for you...I understand you're in a big hurry, but that's hardly justification for calling my so-called claim "cheap" and saying I'm "unwilling". Get a grip...I have a life and that one line "claim" doesn't justify your reactive froth or the urgency you're bringing to this imaginary issue. Isn't right about now when you slam the topic shut?

Have a great holiday! :smile:


Right pink_trike, you too.

As for this disagreement, isn't it silly? I mean, why should Buddhists get a little uptight with such an offhanded statement?
After all, its not like the entire foundation of Buddhism rests on Gotama's actual, real and tangible enlightenment experience, right?

And why wouldn't a religious person just accept your statement and not call bullocks? Why would they hound you
for a reference? Can't they see that you're too busy, what with your many posts to the forum saying that you are, or
saying that you don't care if the Buddha existed. Can't they just not care too? Such people, they're a little beneath you.

Well, have a good holiday.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:37 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .

All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems. No one is anywhere close to asking you to drop everything to answer the question reasonably put to you. Very simply one could say: "I am very busy at this moment, but in a day or two when I have enough free time, I'll be more than happy to respond in detail." Very simply.

Thank you for educating me on how I should respond when I'm busy.
Obviously too busy for giving the situation considered thought, but always happy to help.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby BlackBird » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:40 am

I think it has a lot to do with projection TheReductor.

In these situations it's very easy to project what emotions you think the other party is feeling. In a disagreement over the internet it may be that both people initially project that the other person must be angry, when in fact neither are, and thus it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Tilt certainly doesn't mash his words, neither does PT, which is perhaps why this whole situation might seem a little angsty, but that may not be the case.

I've got an idea, let's ask these two gentlemen how they feel:

Tilt, are you angry?
Pink Trike, are you angry?

Are either of you harboring resentment?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:42 am

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote:I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .

All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems.


LOL...you're persistently consistent.
Given how busy you are with all those turkeys and what you do seem to have a surprising amount of time for the snideness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Postby pink_trike » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:43 am

As for this disagreement, isn't it silly?


More than a little :tongue:

...why should Buddhists get a little uptight with such an offhanded statement?


Fear? Insecurity? intolerance?

...its not like the entire foundation of Buddhism rests on Gotama's actual, real and tangible enlightenment experience, right?


That's debatable, but the foundations of the Dharma surely don't depend on it. [the term "enlightenment" is a poorly understood translation that's created much confusion and delusion].

And why wouldn't a religious person just accept your statement and not call bullocks?


My statement that secular scholars are having trouble finding a Buddha that actually lived? Since that debate really does exist and it has for a long time, what's to call bullocks on?

Can't they see that you're too busy


I should drop everything and start looking through books. Saying "I'm busy" 3 times isn't acceptable to religious people? My, my...

Can't they just not care too?


Now that you mention it, it does seem like they're a bit touchy around certain subjects that maybe rub up against their comfort zone. I stated a fact (yes, there is a debate). I offered no opinion regarding that debate. Why all the reactivity and urgency? :rolleye:

Anyway, gotta go or I'll burn the pies. When I have time and it seems interesting enough I'll dig out some info. Please, don't anyone hold their breath. :smile: I'm into retreat starting monday and won't be back until the 4th.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.


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