Two Naked Buddhas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Venerable,
Thank you for your input.
Paññāsikhara wrote: In such a context, it may be much easier for the student to work out where they are at. Rather than tiny little Dharma centers, where anybody who has read the Idiots Guide to Buddhism, and sat on the floor for 20 minutes, and then thinks that they are enlightened, it is a very different situation.
This is certainly a concern for those of us who have sporadic contact with real teachers (for various reasons). It's easy to fall into an attitude that what one is doing is "good enough" and get thoroughly sidetracked into mediocre practise...

Probably a discussion for another thread:
Paññāsikhara wrote: Personally, I think that a lot (but not all) the "westernization" hype is something of a scapegoat. If they dropped all the western stuff, but still had all the modernization and industrialization that they really want, they would still have pretty much the same problems that some try to blame on westernization.
I agree, and would add that I think that "westerners" are confused between "westernization" (in terms of ideals) and "modernization" (in terms of material stuff). I.e. they think that just because people in Asia have become "modern" they are also "western", or that they care, or should care, about "western ideas".

Metta
Mike
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Kim OHara
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Kim OHara »

Hello, Paññāsikhara,
What you say about your teacher and the community context does highlight, for me, the differences between teaching Buddhism in Asia and in, say, Australia. Here we have little real sense of a religious community and certainly no sense of familial relationships between its members. Everything is far more fluid and temporary, and the typical (implicit) social contract between student and teacher is that their relationship extends only to the subject being taught and only as long as the student wishes to to keep learning - and the fee-for-service model hovers in the background, whether it's framed as 'donations', lesson fees and/or a certain degree of personal commitment.
That alone would be enough of a culture shock, but there is another one.
A monk coming from a rural Thai monastery to an Australian city comes from a culturally homogenous setting which he has been part of for his whole life, to a setting which is new to him and in which all the students are also very different from each other. (I'm setting up the most extreme case here, I know, but it applies to all foreign teachers to different degrees.) At home, understanding the students' starting point was simply a matter of remembering what he was like at that age, or agreeing to teach an older person that he has known all his life. That body of automatic knowledge is useless in Australia and - getting back to 'teaching skills' here - needs to be replaced by conscious strategies for establishing a connection to the students and learning about their skills and abilities.
The more I think about it, the more I am impressed with how well, not how poorly, many of them manage the transition.
:bow: :bow: :bow:

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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Paññāsikhara »

HI Mike -- Yes, I am with you there.

Hi Kim -- Yes, the issues of (largely) ethnically homogeneous vs heterogeneous societies is a big one.
It poses many challenges. However, if Buddhism is to become a true world religion, and transcend ethnic issues, then this challenge must be faced.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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mikenz66
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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Hi Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote: Here we have little real sense of a religious community and certainly no sense of familial relationships between its members. Everything is far more fluid and temporary, and the typical (implicit) social contract between student and teacher is that their relationship extends only to the subject being taught and only as long as the student wishes to to keep learning - and the fee-for-service model hovers in the background, whether it's framed as 'donations', lesson fees and/or a certain degree of personal commitment.
That's why I'm so thankful to have an actual Wat in my city, where I am "part of the family". In fact, I was part of the family before actually doing much in the way of Buddhist practise... Unfortunately, the monks with good enough English to teach Dhamma come and go [hence I spent the first six months just turning up to take precepts, share a meal, and practise Thai] so I don't have as stable a "Dhamma family" as I'd like.

The "fee for service" thing is something I've only experienced with lay teachers. The most annoying part of it is that (due to the incompetence of my mind) giving dana purely becomes much more difficult. In the case of a Wat such as this one there is plenty of lay support from the Thai community, so there's no feeling that "I'd better give something or the teacher will starve..." The teaching is given freely, and so that dana is given freely...

Metta
Mike
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Kim OHara
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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When Buddhism was brought to China all those years ago it entered into a deep dialogue with local religious and philosophical traditions, at the end of which it had absorbed and transmuted enough of the culture to be understood and accepted by the locals. (I know I'm oversimplifying, but bear with me.)
When Buddhism was brought to the modern Western world it entered into a deep dialogue with local religious and philosophical traditions ... I think ... and we're in the middle of it now.
Is this a useful analogy?

Which traditions?
* Science (every modern religion must deal with science!)
* Psychology (one of Harrison's main topics, to return to The Naked Buddha)
* Monotheism (that's the competition :smile: )
* Yoga and Hinduism (competitors or allies?)
* Philosophy (not so relevant to most people)
... any more?


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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Yes, I think that the entrance and naturalization of Buddhism in China is the best historical analogy for its entrance into the West - though they are not identical. This is much more the case than into south asia, or se asia, or from China to Korea and Japan, or likewise into Tibet. The main difference being that China was already a very powerful and advanced culture, the regional superpower, whereas the others have tended to be those cultures which took over a huge amount from India in toto. When one takes things in toto, then in some ways, less internal adaptation is needed.

The biggest difference, however, is that where Buddhism in India at that time was the science and religion of the day, from one superpower to another, at present, buddhism is the religion but not the science of several smallish cultures going to a couple of superpowers in the west. Unless of course China suddenly makes Buddhism it's national religion, in which case the 21st century will be a huge rennaisance for Buddhism. But I can't see that happening for the next generation at least. ... :P
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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pink_trike
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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"Fee for service" is institutionalized here in the U.S. (or at least in metropolitan California). Many events and centers say "no one will be turned away for lack of funds", but they don't mention the pressure often given to work long hours to compensate for not making a donation, or the pinched, frowning facial expressions when asked, or the long lecture about how badly funds are needed. Or the cold, abrupt "I'm sorry, there's no space available" even though there is still space for paying folks. My psychological services staff used to regularly try to get scholarships to events and retreats for some of our low income clients, but eventually we gave up when it became apparent that our begging bowl remained empty nearly every time.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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Hi Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote: When Buddhism was brought to the modern Western world it entered into a deep dialogue with local religious and philosophical traditions ... I think ... and we're in the middle of it now.
I hate to sound argumentative, but what evidence to you have that this is the case?

Of course, there some specialised areas where there is dialogue, but my impression is that beyond those specialists, there is just some vague ideas about meditation (which may or may not be Buddist) being good for you, the Dalai Lama being a really nice guy, and jokes about one hand clapping on the Simpsons. The actual substance of Buddhism is practically unknown, with the possible exception of not having a "God" (though the Dalai Lama is often referred to as a "God-King"). Judging from my reading religious studies dilettantes such as Dawkins clearly know nothing about core dogma such as not-self. And non-specialist philosophers I've met don't seem particularly knowledgeable either.

Furthermore didn't Obama leave Buddhism out of his inaugural address?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman ... liver.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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pink_trike
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by pink_trike »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote: When Buddhism was brought to the modern Western world it entered into a deep dialogue with local religious and philosophical traditions ... I think ... and we're in the middle of it now.
I hate to sound argumentative, but what evidence to you have that this is the case?
I don't know about the whole modern Western world but at least here in California - Buddhism is permeating all areas of thought and discourse, including philosophical and religious traditions. There is a deep "dialogue" ( the word used metaphorically) taking place here.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Paññāsikhara »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote: When Buddhism was brought to the modern Western world it entered into a deep dialogue with local religious and philosophical traditions ... I think ... and we're in the middle of it now.
I hate to sound argumentative, but what evidence to you have that this is the case?

Of course, there some specialised areas where there is dialogue, but my impression is that beyond those specialists, there is just some vague ideas about meditation (which may or may not be Buddist) being good for you, the Dalai Lama being a really nice guy, and jokes about one hand clapping on the Simpsons. The actual substance of Buddhism is practically unknown, with the possible exception of not having a "God" (though the Dalai Lama is often referred to as a "God-King"). Judging from my reading religious studies dilettantes such as Dawkins clearly know nothing about core dogma such as not-self. And non-specialist philosophers I've met don't seem particularly knowledgeable either.

Furthermore didn't Obama leave Buddhism out of his inaugural address?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman ... liver.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
I don't think that we are in the middle of it, but maybe the start of it. But, as I mentioned earlier, the discussion will not reach the same significance as that between Buddhism and Confucianism (say), because whereas Indian Buddhism at the time was at it's height, that is really not the case with Buddhism at present, as it meets science. And other western religions are also on the way out in general - some exceptions, though.

Still, in many areas such as psychology and mind sciences, Buddhism is definitely making an impact and influence.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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mikenz66
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi PT,
pink_trike wrote:[
I don't know about the whole modern Western world but at least here in California - Buddhism is permeating all areas of thought and discourse, including philosophical and religious traditions. There is a deep "dialogue" ( the word used metaphorically) taking place here.
That's interesting. I see little evidence of it in New Zealand.

I'm sure there is some deep dialogue, but when I look up a few random people who I know are interested in the mind, (such as Searle or Dennett) they don't appear to understand very much about Buddhism. Similarly when I converse with the philosophers who I know.

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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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oh but California is California and not america or the west per say, it's of in it's own little world in a way.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Kim OHara
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Kim OHara »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi PT,
pink_trike wrote:[
I don't know about the whole modern Western world but at least here in California - Buddhism is permeating all areas of thought and discourse, including philosophical and religious traditions. There is a deep "dialogue" ( the word used metaphorically) taking place here.
That's interesting. I see little evidence of it in New Zealand.

I'm sure there is some deep dialogue, but when I look up a few random people who I know are interested in the mind, (such as Searle or Dennett) they don't appear to understand very much about Buddhism. Similarly when I converse with the philosophers who I know.

Metta
Mike
Hi, folks,
I think that in terms of my Buddhism-enters-China analogy we're still in the early days, the first and second generation of missionaries and students, numerically small but claiming space in the public arena, locally prominent in some places (e.g. California) but not in others (e.g. outback Australia :tongue: ), and still learning how to talk to the natives in their own language/s.
At this stage, I would expect that we have to make more compromises than the mainstream culture does: we need their acceptance more than they need ours. Of course, we need to make sure that our compromises don't harm our values or core message - and that is where I can loop back to 'Naked Buddhism', which is an attempt to separate 'core' teachings' from non-core' institutions to make them more understandable to the natives.
:juggling:
Kim
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pink_trike
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

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jcsuperstar wrote:oh but California is California and not america or the west per say, it's of in it's own little world in a way.
Yes. Its very unique. Especially Northern California.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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Re: Two Naked Buddhas

Post by Thaibebop »

jcsuperstar wrote:i've found that most authors who do this "stripped down" buddhism thing are really just promoting their own little agenda, which is selling us a buddhism devoid of whatever aspects the author him/herself doesnt like or want to believe

the only good examples of people being able to take buddhism back to it's "roots" or whatever you want to call it, have been lp buddhadasa, who tried to ween thai people away from all the superstitious add-ons to buddhism that thai culture has thrown in, and ajahn chah & his monks which (i may be wrong but i have a feeling i'm not) were kinda following , directly, lp buddhadasa's lead.

the main difference is that with these thai (and western followers) monks they just used the pali canon to see what the buddha taught and sifted off the thai additions, whereas with most western authors you see them just tossing out anything in the canon they dont like, "oh the buddha couldnt have said that", "oh when he mentions gods etc its just metaphor" "that was just added later" etc.
I agree with you that we need to be careful when reading such things, but I must say that was one of the things that brought me to Theravada. The myths that surround the other sects of Buddhism was too much for me. Sometimes I found them to be too close to Christian ideals of someone else coming down from the heavens and saving poor lost sinners. I say we tear down what we take in of Buddhism and find the real bones ourselves.
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