Secret Book??

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Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:09 pm

just reading 'On the Practice of Buddhist Meditation According to the Pali Nikayas and Exegetical Sources' by Dr. Rupert Gethin from the University of Bristol, and on page 13 of the PDF or 212 of the book this is found in (don't know the book sorry) it mentions that the Visudimagga says something allong the lines of "Teaching him 'secret books' (Vism III 123-27)" I don't have a copy of the Visudhimagga anymore to look at what it says myself but this seams rather strange to me for it to mention secret books? anyone have any ideas what these would be?
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:44 pm

Hello Manapa,

Vis. III.126 in DESCRIPTION OF CONCENTRATION says:

"When he dedicates himself to a teacher, he should say 'I relinguish this my person to you, venerable sir'. For one who has not dedicated his person thus becomes unresponsive to correction, hard to speak to, and unamenable to advice, or he goes where he likes without asking the teacher. Consequently the teacher does not help him with either material things or the Dhamma, and he does not train him in the cryptic books. [note 35]
Failing to get these two inds of help he finds no footing in the Dispensation, and he soon comes down to misconducting himself or to the lay state. But if he has ded icated his person, he is not unresponsive to correction, does not go about as he liikes, is easy to speak to, and lives only in dependence onthe teacher. He gets the twofold help from the teacher and attains growth, increase and fulfilment in the Dispensation. Like the Elder Cula-Pindapataka-'Tissa's pupils."{

Note 35 : "The cryptic books": the meditation-subject books dealing with the truths, the dependent origination, ec., which are profound and associated with voidness' (Pm.III), Cf. MA ii, 264; AA. commentary to A. Catujkka-nipata, 180.

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:34 pm

Thanks Chris!
Maybe it isn't specifically secret books but a willingness to teach these aspects of the teachings to the student?

wonder if any of our esteamed bhikkhus know of secret books? (denial of secrecy will only prove secrecy :tongue:) but it also reminds me of Anathapindikas death, asking Sariputta to ask the Buddha not to conceal the more difficult teachings from the lay followers! although I may have the people situation slightly wrong?
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:18 pm

The word is guu.lha, which can mean 'cryptic' or 'hidden'.

But it is interesting to compare with other translations.

In Nyanatiloka's German translation (1927) we find 'tiefsinnigen Text' (profound text). And in Christian Maës' French translation (2002) we find 'textes profonds' (profound texts).
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:38 pm

I did actually pull up my dictionary program to double check what cryptic means

1. ambiguous or obscure: deliberately mysterious and seeming to have a hidden meaning
2. secret: secret or hidden in some way
3. indicating solution indirectly: describes crossword puzzles, clues, or anagrams with an indirect solution
4. using codes: relating to or using codes or similar techniques
5. zoology protective: describes body markings or colouring that camouflages an animal

I was taking it to be a meaning connected to the first three so profound may actually say that quite clearly? may not be a direct English translation but it does make more sense, to me at least.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:57 pm

It might be even better to check the online PTS dictionary:http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=pali&query=gulha&matchtype=exact&display=utf8

Here we find that gambhira (deep) is glossed with gulha. So the German and the French translations seem to be justified.
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:44 am

just had a look up on my pali lookup program (aren't I a tech wizz)

gambhīra : [adj.] deep; profound; hard to perceive. (nt.), depth.
gambhīratā : [f.] depth.
gambhīrāvabhāsa : [(gambhīra + avabhāsa) adj.] having the appearance of depth or profundity.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby fig tree » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:15 am

For one who has not dedicated his person thus becomes unresponsive to correction, hard to speak to, and unamenable to advice, or he goes where he likes without asking the teacher. Consequently the teacher does not help him with either material things or the Dhamma, and he does not train him in the cryptic books.

The context seems to suggest that the issue is, if you make it harder for your teacher to teach you, she or he will be reluctant to go into topics that are relatively difficult to teach anyway.

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:47 am

Chris wrote:Hello Manapa,

Vis. III.126 in DESCRIPTION OF CONCENTRATION says:

"When he dedicates himself to a teacher, he should say 'I relinguish this my person to you, venerable sir'. For one who has not dedicated his person thus becomes unresponsive to correction, hard to speak to, and unamenable to advice, or he goes where he likes without asking the teacher. Consequently the teacher does not help him with either material things or the Dhamma, and he does not train him in the cryptic books. [note 35]
Failing to get these two inds of help he finds no footing in the Dispensation, and he soon comes down to misconducting himself or to the lay state. But if he has ded icated his person, he is not unresponsive to correction, does not go about as he liikes, is easy to speak to, and lives only in dependence onthe teacher. He gets the twofold help from the teacher and attains growth, increase and fulfilment in the Dispensation. Like the Elder Cula-Pindapataka-'Tissa's pupils."{

Note 35 : "The cryptic books": the meditation-subject books dealing with the truths, the dependent origination, ec., which are profound and associated with voidness' (Pm.III), Cf. MA ii, 264; AA. commentary to A. Catujkka-nipata, 180.

metta
Chris


The footnote in particular reminds me of the Ani sutta in the samyutta nikaya, which talks about the "profound teachings connected with sunnata" in a very similar way. Here, however, the word for "profound" (thanks for the connection from Kare and Manapa) is not guul.ha, but gambhira. The term gambhira of "profound", "deep", is commonly used as an adjective for dependent origination.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

...
"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering.
...

SN ii 266:
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, bhavissanti bhikkhū anāgatamaddhānaṃ, ye te suttantā tathāgatabhāsitā gambhīrā gambhīratthā lokuttarā suññatappaṭisaṃyuttā, tesu bhaññamānesu na sussūsissanti na sotaṃ odahissanti na aññā cittaṃ upaṭṭhāpessanti na ca te dhamme uggahetabbaṃ pariyāpuṇitabbaṃ maññissanti’’

The reference to "finds no footing in the Dispensation" in the Vsm and the statements in the Ani sutta of "won't listen when discourses ... They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering." are also very similar.

(oh, hehe, just noticed the other posts, which mention gambhira, too.)

hhmmm, considering where that footnote is front, and the section in the Patisambhidamagga on sunnata, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "book" referred to is the Pts itself. Unlike a lot of other Theravadin literature, it really does have quite a heavy theme on sunnata, and not just as "not self" in the slightest!
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:09 pm

hi Paññāsikhara

Do you mean Pts is the Patisambhidamagga?

I know I am in all likelyhood being stupid here because I am tired but just was to clarify (excuses excuses!)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:31 pm

Yes. Big section on sunnata in the Patisambhidamagga, much more than probably the entire rest of Theravadin literature put together. It is really curious too, because the types of sunnata given are about 80% not found in other texts, of any school. As opposed to a series of other types of sunnata for which one can kind of trace the development over a couple of centuries. From whence they came, and whence they went, I know not. (And neither does any other scholar, as far as I can tell, and I've been looking!)
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:33 pm

Paññāsikhara wrote:Patisambhidamagga,
To bad that there is not a functionally usable translation of it in English
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:51 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:Patisambhidamagga,
To bad that there is not a functionally usable translation of it in English


Another excellent reason for studying Pali ... :reading: :rolleye:
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:02 pm

Kare wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:Patisambhidamagga,
To bad that there is not a functionally usable translation of it in English


Another excellent reason for studying Pali ...

Been there done that in the mid 80's at the University of Wisconsin, Madison for four years. I let things slide for quite a while: Use it or lose it, and feeling a need for focus on language study, for very personal reasons opt not to go any further with Pali. Instead I am spending my time learn the language of the gods: Gaeilge, and Tá mé ar mhuin na muice.

Ven Nyanamoli's translation, I suppose, is a good start, but seeing what Ven Dhammanando and you have done with Pts, it is a work that really should be redone, making it easily accessible.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:18 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Instead I am spending my time learn the language of the gods: Gaeilge, and Tá mé ar mhuin na muice.



:?:
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote: Instead I am spending my time learn the language of the gods: Gaeilge, and Tá mé ar mhuin na muice.


Which Type? there are several dialects and three forms and I am not overly familiar with the spelling?
Tá mé Ar Mhuin na Muice (I'm On the Pig's Back), should point out I did have a little search
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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