Cula Sotapanna

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Cula Sotapanna

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:48 am

Hello all,

From time to time I've come across the notion of "cula sotapanna," or lesser sotapanna, but I seldom see it mentioned on discussion boards and I wonder if it's held out as an intermediate goal of practice (so to speak) in the manner that stream-entry is, but more like an almost-there stage.

From here:
The Mogok Sayadaw assured that those who had fulfilled the four conditions in the past life and died before attaining a noble status, they were guaranteed a rebirth in a Deva realm with a subsequent realisation of Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and liberation.

They were the Buddha's words and one can take them for granted. The four conditions are as follows:
    (1) The person must have listened to a discourse about the realities of existence, Anicca (impermanence), Dukkha (suffering) and Anatta (void of self or ego or immortal soul).
    (2) The person must have learnt about these realities and can recite them verbally. It is known as Cutamaya panna or acquired knowledge.
    (3) The person must have reflected these realities during Vipassana meditation. It is Cintamaya panna or knowledge acquired through analytic inquest.
    (4) The person must have witnessed the arising and dissolving phenomenon of meditation objects and have perceived the concept of Anatta (impersonal). Vipassana nana (Uddayabbaya nana) or knowledge or insight into the absence of immortal soul. This would be equivalent to a Cula Sotapanna.

These persons may not have experienced the realities of existence through the Bhavanamaya panna and have not reached the noble status as a human. When they die they will be reborn in one of the six Deva realms (heavens) and will attain either Sotapanna, Sakadagam, Anagam or Arahat in the following ways.
    1. Yogi (meditator) who had fulfilled the four conditions and died with the reflection of the three realities of existence, Acicca, Dukkha and Anatta, would be reborn as a Deva immediately, but the continuity of the last thought would enable the Yogi to reflect upon these realities before the Yogi realised that he or she was a Deva. This reflection will result in a noble status immediately and a teacher is not required to assist him for liberation.
    2. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without the reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will be assisted to realise these realities by the Devas who know his thought and will persuade him to reflect upon them. The Yogi will reach a noble status there and then with a little help.
    3. Yogi who had fulfilled the four conditions, but died without reflection of the realities would be reborn as a Deva. The Yogi will attain a noble status within a week as a Deva after attending a meeting of Devas and hearing a discourse. The meeting is held weekly and is attended by Devas of all six heavens and discourses are given by liberated ones.
    4. Yogi who died in a similar way and was reborn as a Deva would be approached by his Dhamma friends and would persuade him to continue with the practice.

Anyone know anything more about this condition know as cula sotapanna? Canonical? Speculation? Tradition? Something else?
:thanks:
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby robertk » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:10 am

Sujin Boriharnwanaket, the famous Thai teacher, says essentially the same thing as Mogok sayadaw. Cula -sotappana is mentioned in many Commentaries.
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:14 am

Greetings,

Does this bear any relationship to the concepts of a "Dhamma follower" and "Faith follower" which we see mentioned in the suttas?

Apparently these followers will not die before attaining sotapanna.

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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby piotr » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:16 am

Hi,

Here is a quote from Piya Tan's introduction to Sarakāni-sutta (SN 55.24):

    2 Six categories of saints

    The Buddha goes on to list six categories of persons who are assured of liberation, namely:

    (1) arhats,
    (2) non-returners,
    (3) once-returnres
    (4) stream-winners,
    (5) [truth-followers] those who accept the Dharma only after pondering over it with wisdom
    (dhammā paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti) who do not have quick and sharp wisdom
    and have not attained complete release, but who do possess the five faculties (pañc'indriyani)
    of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom [sutta §11]; and
    (6) [faith-followers] those who only possess the five faculties but who have mere faith (saddhā,matta) in and mere love (pema,matta) for the Buddha.

    The elder monks of old (poraṇaka thera) call such spiritually developed persons like (5) and (6) as "lesser
    stream-winners
    " (cūḷa,sotāpanna) or "maturing stream-winner" (bala,sotāpanna). — Piya Tan, Sarākani Sutta 1: The Discourse on Sarākani

I attach whole paper for your convenience.
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3.6SarakaniSs55.24piya.pdf
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:08 pm

Awesome, :thanks: piotr!

I noted the subtitle of the paper (Even a drunk can be enlightened). That seems counter-intuitive. I'll read the paper more closely.

Also, I think I read somewhere else that a cula-sotappana is not assured of liberation but can still fall of the wagon, so to speak, maybe because all fetters are still intact?

:thumbsup:
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:41 pm

this is a very important topic as we should atleast strive to be cula-sotapannas. They seem to be synonymous with sotapatti-magga persons, but not sotapatti phala persons (if you believe that particular version of the 8 types of followers).

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have abandoned the three fetters, are all stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers and conviction-followers 18 are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

their insights are as follows (as opposed to stream entrants):

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#okkanta

they also seem to be meditating as they are said to haev the five spiritual faculties:

Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to the Teaching (dhamma-follower). : Here, bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience those immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He is convinced in the Teaching of the Thus Gone One to a certain extent, by wisely thinking about it. Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. To this one is said, living according to the Teaching. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, would realize and abide. Seeing these good results for diligence I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.

Bhikkhus, who is the person living according to faith (faith-follower)? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not experience the immaterial attainments with the body. His desires are not destroyed, not seeing with wisdom. He has some faith and love for the Thus Gone One Yet to him there are the faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdomTo this one is said, living according to faith. To this bhikkhu too I say, there is something to be done diligently. What is the reason: Bhikkhus, this one partaking of suitable dwellings, associating good friends, and with the development of his faculties, for whatever reason this clansman left the household and became homeless, that highest end of the holy life, he here and now, will realize. Seeing these good results for diligence, I tell this bhikkhu to be diligent.

http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ri-e1.html

The stages are said to arise after ditti-visuddhi (3rd purifcation) of the 7 stages of purification. A sotapanna is said to 'know and see'. All stages of purifcation after the 3rd have the words 'know and see' after them. So it is assumed that a culla-sotapanna has reached this stage of satipatthana development.
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:51 pm

rowyourboat wrote:They seem to be synonymous with sotapatti-magga persons, but not sotapatti phala persons (if you believe that particular version of the 8 types of followers).

Thanks, rowyourboat.

Quick followup: I understood that sotapatti-magga citta lasts for just a moment before sotapatti-phala citta arises, so that a sotapatti maggattha person for practical purposes isn't someone we're ever going to meet, because such a person becomes a sotapatti-phalattha person in very short order. So I think both would be different from cula-sotapanna. Or am I mistaken?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Cula Sotapanna

Postby Dhammanando » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:18 am

Hi Jechbi,

Jechbi wrote:Quick followup: I understood that sotapatti-magga citta lasts for just a moment before sotapatti-phala citta arises, so that a sotapatti maggattha person for practical purposes isn't someone we're ever going to meet, because such a person becomes a sotapatti-phalattha person in very short order. So I think both would be different from cula-sotapanna. Or am I mistaken?


No, you're correct. The cullasotāpanna knows what's magga and what's not, but hasn't yet attained magga.

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