Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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puthujjana
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by puthujjana »

IanAnd wrote: Do you have the Nikaya volume and sutta number to give us? (For example: MN 22 or DN 16.
Unfortunatelly I can't as it seems that this (Sanskrit-) sutra was composed several hundred of years after the Buddha in Northern India and served as a meditation manual.

Ven. Analayo wrote the following about the historical background:
Ven. Analayo wrote:In view of this remarkable similarity between the U Ba Khin method
and the instructions given in the Dhyānasamādhi Sūtra, the historical
background to this particular text calls for further comment.

For the Dhyānasamādhi Sūtra to be translated by a famous translator like
Kumārajīva, one would expect that this work, or at least the various parts
that make up this work, were well known already before his time. Thus the
understanding of the third step of mindfulness of breathing as involving
an awareness of the whole body, documented in the Dhyānasamādhi
Sūtra, may well be considerably earlier than its translation, which was
apparently undertaken slightly earlier than Buddhaghosa’s compiling of
the Visuddhimagga.

[...]

According to modern scholarship, this section of the Dhyānasamādhi
Sūtra reflects the practice of meditating monks in the northwest of India
during the first to the fourth centuries of our era.

[...]

During the early centuries of the present era, the northwest of India
was a stronghold of the Sarvāstivāda tradition.

[...]

:anjali:
"Once you understand anatta, then the burden of life is gone. You’ll be at peace with the world. When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness and we can truly be happy."
- Ajahn Chah
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by jcsuperstar »

interesting article. i've yet to read the book yet, although i have it. i was thinking about takingit up after finishing ajahn sujato's history of mindfulness (which ven analayo actually helped ven sujato on)which i had been working on, but i recently had surgery (last Thursday) and haven't felt like doing too much and pain pills dont help the mind focus too well for reading.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Ben
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Ben »

Hi Puthujjana,
puthujjana wrote: Unfortunatelly I can't as it seems that this (Sanskrit-) sutra was composed several hundred of years after the Buddha in Northern India and served as a meditation manual.
Was it composed several hundred years later, or has it only survived in the Agamas?
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Cittasanto
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Cittasanto »

I believe it was mentioned in the paper that it was made up from other texts, so not a individual text in its own right but rather an anthology of passages from other texts, which came about later.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Paññāsikhara »

After an invite from Ben:

The text is
《坐禪三昧經》 No. 614
姚秦三藏鳩摩羅什譯
(CBETA, T15, no. 614, p. 269, c25-28)

It is not in the standard Agama collections. This does not mean that it is not equivalent to an Agama text, though, as sometimes individual texts were translated as one-offs, and sometimes these were even put elsewhere. In particular, because it was translated by Kumarajiva, and the later arrangers of the Chinese canon tend to assume that Kumarajiva is Mahayanist (and he is), they may just put anything by him in that category. Often, though, Kumarajiva produced a lot of Sarvastivadin and similar works. It is in the Taisho along with other "dhyana sutras", but not in the volumes with the full Agamas or one-off agama sutras.

This text would probably make some Theravadins think that it is Mahayanist, simply on the grounds of "if it has things that are not in our suttas or texts, then it must be Mahayanist." For example, practices of visualizing the Buddha. But it is not that simple, and it simply reflects ideas that were prevalent in a lot of other mainstream schools at that time. It apparently has a verse on dhyana in it from Asvaghosa. Yinshun believes it to be a text from the Darstantikas (Yinshun 1985: 205-06, 1091: 862), and he is probably correct. I am a bit surprised that Ven Analayo did not check out Ven Yinshun, because as far as things like this go, he is the expert par excellence! The Darstantikas are the meditative / sauntrantika side of the Sarvastivada, so this is perhaps why the order and other features are more similar to the Theravada Nikayas than the Sarvastivadin Agama layout.

Anything else that you are specifically looking for?
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Venerable!

Can you say what is the relationship between this Sutra and those translated from Chinese by Thich Nhat Hanh in "Breath! You are alive: Sutra on the full awareness of breathing"? He has his own translation of the Anapanasati Sutta and also an appendix with extracts from what he says are the Samyutaka Agama (Tsa A Han, cahpter 29, Taisho Revised Tripitika, number 99). The particular Sutras are numbers 815, 803, and 810. It's 803 that has the four tetrads and there are differences between this and the Pali version.

Metta
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Ben
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Ben »

Thank you Venerable!
metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Paññāsikhara »

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks Venerable!

Can you say what is the relationship between this Sutra and those translated from Chinese by Thich Nhat Hanh in "Breath! You are alive: Sutra on the full awareness of breathing"? He has his own translation of the Anapanasati Sutta and also an appendix with extracts from what he says are the Samyutaka Agama (Tsa A Han, cahpter 29, Taisho Revised Tripitika, number 99). The particular Sutras are numbers 815, 803, and 810. It's 803 that has the four tetrads and there are differences between this and the Pali version.

Metta
Mike
Well, the "Tsa A Han" is the Chinese version of the Samyuktagama. (It's kind of interesting that Ven Hanh uses this version, because in Chinese (incl. Vietnamese) Buddhism, they were very seldom used, and as far as I know, basically never in the Chan / Zen traditions, which used other texts. They would tend to use that "dhyana-samadhi sutra" and the like, more than the Agamas.) Without sitting down and looking over them for a few hours at least, it is hard to say. There are already some comments on those texts in that Analayo article, though. There are a lot of versions of the anapanasati sutta around. Not just in these agama / nikaya forms, but also appearing whole or partially in Abhidharma texts, Yogacara texts, and even the large Prajnaparamita sutra. Ven Prof Dhammajoti did a few classes, comparing some of them together, but not all of them. It would be fairly involved work to really sort out what was going on, their inter-relationships, etc., let alone the implications of the practices.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Manapa wrote:hi ben
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... f/analayo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is a file from the university of hamberg which has some of Bhantes works of varying sizes and much is very interesting, although some are copies from encyclopedia entries by bhante there are other papers there!
and you might be able to contact bhante through one of the links on his profile found here http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... .html?&L=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there are other papers from other authors found in predominantly German, but some English also.
Wow, Manapa! Great little goldmine there, that is! Thank you very much.
I've been a bit of a fan of Ven Analayo for a couple of years. Haven't had the time to read his book from cover to cover, but have definitely a fair bit of it.
He also has a few articles for the buddhist studies journal that Ven Prof Dhammajoti publishes from here in HK (technically in Sri Lanka).
In general, I really like his approach, and for the area of early (agama / nikaya) buddhism, I try to take the same approach (though he is quite a few years ahead of me in scholarship!)

This article here is really great. There are now a few agama / nikaya comparative studies, table and charts, and things, but this is one of the first which outlines some basic theories and principles of how to go about them. It goes beyond this textual genre, too, and can be extended - with modifications - elsewhere. So, I think that parts of this are definitely about to make their way into my methodology chapter in my dissertation!

Good scholarship which is critical but not hypercritical, which is able to understand the Dhamma, without being credulous.

Thank you! :)
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote: Well, the "Tsa A Han" is the Chinese version of the Samyuktagama. (It's kind of interesting that Ven Hanh uses this version, because in Chinese (incl. Vietnamese) Buddhism, they were very seldom used, and as far as I know, basically never in the Chan / Zen traditions, which used other texts. They would tend to use that "dhyana-samadhi sutra" and the like, more than the Agamas.) ....
Thanks for the comments. Yes, it's sometimes interesting what Ven Hanh comes up with...

Metta
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Cittasanto
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Cittasanto »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Manapa wrote:hi ben
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... f/analayo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here is a file from the university of hamberg which has some of Bhantes works of varying sizes and much is very interesting, although some are copies from encyclopedia entries by bhante there are other papers there!
and you might be able to contact bhante through one of the links on his profile found here http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... .html?&L=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
there are other papers from other authors found in predominantly German, but some English also.
Wow, Manapa! Great little goldmine there, that is! Thank you very much.
I've been a bit of a fan of Ven Analayo for a couple of years. Haven't had the time to read his book from cover to cover, but have definitely a fair bit of it.
He also has a few articles for the buddhist studies journal that Ven Prof Dhammajoti publishes from here in HK (technically in Sri Lanka).
In general, I really like his approach, and for the area of early (agama / nikaya) buddhism, I try to take the same approach (though he is quite a few years ahead of me in scholarship!)

This article here is really great. There are now a few agama / nikaya comparative studies, table and charts, and things, but this is one of the first which outlines some basic theories and principles of how to go about them. It goes beyond this textual genre, too, and can be extended - with modifications - elsewhere. So, I think that parts of this are definitely about to make their way into my methodology chapter in my dissertation!

Good scholarship which is critical but not hypercritical, which is able to understand the Dhamma, without being credulous.

Thank you! :)
the second link has links to other members works which are available mainly in german but there are a few english articles as well other than Analayos, I have downloaded one and quite a few of Analayos, it is very interesting stuff there and thank-you for the link, I missed that in my download spree!
on a slightly off topic note I think if a western or european buddhism to form propperly this sort of work needs done, Bhantes book is excelent but I have deliberately forgotten the contents.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by zavk »

Most excellent! I've benefitted greatly from Ven. Analayo's work. Do keep us updated if you manage to get in touch with him and find out more about the history of U Ba Khin's approach to meditation, Ben.
With metta,
zavk
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Wow! So much praise for this book! I'm definately going to have another attempt at this book when I get the chance.
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by Cittasanto »

Thank-you Paññāsikhara
I am looking for my glasses though :stirthepot:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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bodom
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Re: Satipatthana: the direct path to realization

Post by bodom »

Does anyone know of any links to actual medtitation instruction by Ven. Analayo. I am curious as to what type of meditation Analayo practices and teaches. I believe he may practice in Mahasi's tradition as he notes in this book on the usefulness of noting and labelling in meditation practice.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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