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"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism? - Dhamma Wheel

"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Cafael Dust
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"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:41 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:06 pm


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Fede
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Fede » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:18 pm

Ok, laying everything aside for a moment, you are experiencing an emotional attachment which is creating suffering.
Why?
because you are of the opinion that the only way you can be with this woman is to agree to believe in a God, and more importantly, adhere to the Moslem faith, without compromising your Buddhist roots.

Sorry chum.
you can't have it both ways.

If you progress with your attachment to this girl, and cement your relationship, her family will not only expect and demand you convert to Islam, but that you cease practising or even thinking about Buddhism.
They will also expect you to adopt Islam as your sole religion, and that will mean devoting yourself to Allah.
It's all very well, Chownah, stating that 'Buddhist', Muslim', or even 'Jew', Christian', 'Hindu' or Sikh' are mere labels.
You know that, I know that.
Most people following these religions see it as part of their identity, and to Moslems, it's the only identity to have, because everything else makes you a heathen and an infidel.

Your question really should be:
"Should I pursue this relationship, knowing it will mean an end to my Buddhist calling, if it progresses to a serious relationship?"
because I suspect that this is really what you're asking.

And only you can answer that one, ravi2.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:31 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:15 pm

hi Cafael Dust & Fede
Sorry Cadael but what there is relevant to the Theravada? or Islam? and most of that list misrepresents the actual meanings and use of the term.

Fede :goodpost:


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:16 pm

I can go on with elements of Islam and Theravada if you like. If you're going to say that the terms don't refer to the same phenomena you have to explain how they differ, not just assert that they differ.

Also, while I'm sure you can find written definitions that explain doctrinally the existence of some hair's breadth distance between, say Buddha Nature, Enlightened being and Inner Light, I reserve the right to continue perceiving that in terms of real experience, people using different landmarks have passed along the same roads.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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cooran
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:34 pm

What has Comparative Religions to do with the General Theravada discussion forum?
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Cittasanto
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:17 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:17 pm

Manapa:

I disagree with your definitions, especially:

mindfulness = recollection of ones duties , which is entirely incorrect in my view.

but I do seem to have a habit of digressing from a thread's purpose, so I'll cease and desist.

I guess I'd say to the thread's author that sometimes people want you to identify with x or y for various reasons, one of which is romantic love. If you want to do so in order to marry someone, to fit into their world, well, I'd say it's a question of how much you need to do so, and what you feel is right action.

But I will say that labels in Buddhism are as insignificant as dust on the wind. That's fundamental to Buddhism, and in that I'm a fundamentalist. Calling oneself a Muslim cannot prevent one from practicing Buddhism, and a Muslim can be enlightened as easily as anyone else.

To answer your second post, yes, I think you can practice both religions honestly, but our words here won't make that possible; you have to understand for yourself the truth behind the forms.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Ben
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Ben » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:48 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:12 am

Ah, but you're assuming that a Muslim interprets his religion in a way that causes him to believe in souls and a creator God. For instance, I believe in the soul and in God, but that's because I recognise them as correlates of experience; therefore I suppose I don't really believe, but know.

As to how I define these things in a Buddhist sense: the soul is nibbana. Nibbana is dwelling in God's presence.

Essentially, there is nothing but nibbana, only beginningless ignorance, not itself an element, not itself real, keeps us in samsara. Don't ask me to speculate on the beginnings of ignorance (something I've spent fruitless hours wondering about in the past): the Buddha himself explained:

"Suppose a man is struck by a poisoned arrow and the doctor wishes to take out the arrow immediately. Suppose the man does not want the arrow removed until he knows who shot it, his age, his parents, and why he shot it. What would happen? If he were to wait until all these questions have been answered, the man might die first."

(from the Arrow Sutra)

p.s. Jihad is the practice of ending ignorance. I think the Muslim faith contains much that is beautiful, by the way, though like other faiths, not everyone who practices it is the best example of said beauty. As-Salāmu `Alaykum :smile: .
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:16 am


Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:26 am

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:41 am

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:45 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:47 am

Whare does the buddha talk about the soul in such a way or say heaven is nibbana?

maybe a split topic is in order?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:22 am

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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pink_trike
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby pink_trike » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:31 am

Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:40 am

Good post, Jechbi.

It's all about love (great film that).

I like your post too, Pink Trike.

I read The Pali Canon because it's well written and helpful.

I have however considered the matter like this:

Buddhists are especially ignorant to need such a well written, concise, essentially idiot proof guide to enlightenment. Taoists manage to get enlightened from reading a poem. They're clearly not the idiots we are :tongue: .

Now I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but I actually use it as an exercise in my practice, whenever I start getting big headed about being a Buddhist.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:02 am

Hi Cafael
quoting what someone else says about anatta isn't an answer and doesn't answer the question! where does the Buddha talk about the soul in such a way?

Nibbana is not a place it is not described as heaven and the heavens are described.

and the context, I hope a black cat crosses your path can be taken in two different ways as a blessing or a curse depending on the local tradition, say it in the wrong context and you could end up lynch mobbed. say rat here you could end up with two black eyes, or a dead arm/leg or not, depending on who you say it to and the area they are from, spill salt in a kitchen and you could get literally thrown out head first depending on the chef, but do it in a home and it is doubtful to happen. this is a theravada forum with people from all over the world visiting who wont necessarily understand your context, the forms of expressions in china and japan wont necessarily be understood in the same manner in another asian country let alone the west in a forum of a tradition which doesn't use such expressions to that extent! or is the finger loosing the staring competition yet?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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