Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

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Fede
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Fede »

edit note:
Responding to Pink Trike, here.....

In whichever case, most of what we're discussing is therefore hypothesis, speculation and total guess-work (coupled with, I dare say, the odd fragment of wishful thinking....) :juggling:
Suffice to say we should gaze at the moon, and not the finger.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Kim OHara
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Kim OHara »

Judas,
When I look at your last two replies to me, one of them is objective/historical and the other is subjective/metaphorical. You can't have it both ways.
And the objective/historical one fails to respond to the point I made. It just repeats something you said before.
If I tell you three times that today is Wednesday, does that make my statement any more truthful?

Kim
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Kim there is a record (cant remember the name) of jesus being taken out of the country to a foregn land some say Egypt but the record gives another place but cant remember where? generally this is because of Herods census, but the bible passage you mention does indicate he was known well enough in the area for people to recognise him, so he would of at least had to of been there for some time prior, not just turn up 18years later. although the absence of information in the bible of these years and what is mentioned (40 days and night in the desert, and your passage) would indicate that he may of actually spent some time away practising 'spiritual life' at some point, or at least know enough about certain practices for him to have a basis for having a mystical experience which led him to teach.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Kim OHara
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, Manapa,
Probability is one thing, likelihood another - but I compute them in pretty much the same way.

If the historicity of Jesus is dubious, I might give it a likelihood of 0.2
I might give the story that Jesus travelled to India a likelihood of 0.1, just on its own merits (and I think I'm being generous there).
That gives them a combined likelihood of 0.2 x 0.1 or 0.02

The likelihood that no-one said anything about this extended absence is independently about 0.05, I think.
Given the very poor correlation between his teachings and Indian thought, the likelihood that Indian teachings influenced Christianity is, independently again, about 0.05.
The combined likelihood of all these statements is 0.2 x 0.1 x 0.05 x 0.05, or 1 in 20 000

I didn't do the sums until just now, as a demonstration. My real thought processes were more like, 'that's unlikely and that's very unlikely so, taken together, they are so improbable that I can dismiss them.'

Okay, folks, can we get back to the dharma?

:namaste:
Kim
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catmoon
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by catmoon »

Not without mentioning the Jewish historian Josephus, who mentioned the following:

3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

This is not from the Bible. It is independent history, paid for by Rome. Josephus lived from AD 37 to AD 100 and so is writing at about the same historical distance from the events as a modern writer would be, if his subject was WWII. Maybe less.
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Cittasanto »

hi Kim,
you didn't take into account the Greeks who did have contact with the Romans, who were in contact with the indians and it is believed by some that a Buddhist monastic group existed in Alexandria (?) and words such as Therapy are thought by some to of originated from this group (Christopher Titmus has written an article on this). The Greeks did have contact with Egypt as well which is one place it is thought that jesus went, then there is also the evidence that St Thomas the apostle (Gospel of Thomas fame) is believed to of, and evidence exists for this, went to India where a church group existed for about 1500 years before it was brought into the roman churches fold.

Although I do not believe that jesus went to india and the historical accuracy of the bible is unlikely the contact between the cultures and the small amount of common ground maybe coincidental but may not be for a variety of reasons.

Those who have said the Buddha or Jesus didn't exist I would like to see them prove Shakespeare did exist! there is very little evidence that Shakespeare as an actual
person did exist and some have put forward that he was a pseudonym of a group of or one writer(s) who weren't getting their plays produced so made him up spread rumours about how good his plays were etc
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
notself
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by notself »

Your quote is not recognized as authentic and is most likely a much later addition.
As usual with ancient texts, the surviving sources for The Antiquities of the Jews are Greek manuscripts, all minuscules, the oldest of which dates from the 11th century.[3] The text of Antiquities appears to have been transmitted in two halves — books 1–10 and books 11–20. But other ad hoc copies of this passage also exist.

The topic of the Testimonium's authenticity has attracted much scholarly discussion. Louis Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of 1937-1980, "the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in whole or in part".[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Though one may conquer a thousand times a thousand men in battle, yet he is indeed the noblest victor who conquers himself. ---Dhp 103
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Kare
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Kare »

Manapa wrote:
Those who have said the Buddha or Jesus didn't exist I would like to see them prove Shakespeare did exist!
Sorry to say so, but this is a totally confused way of arguing. If you wish to examine the question of the existence of Jesus, examine the question of the existence of Jesus, not the Buddha or Shakespeare.

If you want to find out if Joe is at home or not, do you then go to the home of Jack or Mary to see if they are at home?
Mettāya,
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Fede
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Fede »

Shakespeare did exist.
There are official documents (birth certificates, local church records, portraits,) to corroborate his existence.

My mother was a freelance State registered Guild of Guides tourist guide. She worked for 21 years. She still has her badge, and even now, at 77 is qualified to act as a Guide for tourists. She is only one of 3 guides in the UK to hold this privilege (after retirement, you're usually requested to hand in your badge, which acts as a free pass to famous monuments and institutions where normally, an entrance fee would apply).
She became so proficient at her job, that she qualified as an examiner for new guides in both English and Italian (her mother tongue).
She knows that Shakespeare existed, so I'm confident in her knowledge.

next......?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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tiltbillings
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by tiltbillings »

Fede wrote:
next......?
Robin Hood?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Fede
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Fede »

Was actually Robert of Loxley, and probably never came from Nottingham itself, but from a neighbouring hamlet.....
oh....sorry.....
I see what you're doing there...... :tongue: :jumping:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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catmoon
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by catmoon »

notself wrote:Your quote is not recognized as authentic and is most likely a much later addition.
As usual with ancient texts, the surviving sources for The Antiquities of the Jews are Greek manuscripts, all minuscules, the oldest of which dates from the 11th century.[3] The text of Antiquities appears to have been transmitted in two halves — books 1–10 and books 11–20. But other ad hoc copies of this passage also exist.

The topic of the Testimonium's authenticity has attracted much scholarly discussion. Louis Feldman counts 87 articles published during the period of 1937-1980, "the overwhelming majority of which question its authenticity in whole or in part".[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Please note that to question authenticity is a very different thing from denying it. In fact the number of scholars who outright deny the authenticity of the entire passage is a small minority, so contrary to your statement, it IS recognized as authentic, at least in part, by the large majority or writers. Bear in mind that the same standards of authenticity that are used on Jesus could well be applied to the authenticity of Buddha!

At least in the case of Josephus, we know who the author was and when he lived, and who he was working for and how he got the job.

Then add in the fact that this is not the only reference to Jesus in Josephus, and that Josephus was hardly the only independent writer to mention Jesus, and you have an insurmountable wave of evidence. There was a Jesus, he was a teacher, and he was put to death by the Romans. Probably on a charge of sedition.
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by catmoon »

What next, are gonna start denying the existence of Mohammed? Or Ghandi? Maybe John F. Kennedy wasn't a real guy, maybe he was a fiction perpetrated by the government using a series of actors to portay the part....
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by Fede »

Now you're just being obtuse and using puerile argument.

You merely succeed in making yourself sound ridiculous.

resorting to such facile statements adds no weight to your discussion.


IMO.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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catmoon
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Re: Did Christ come to India to study Buddhism, Vedas?

Post by catmoon »

Fede wrote:Now you're just being obtuse and using puerile argument.

You merely succeed in making yourself sound ridiculous.

resorting to such facile statements adds no weight to your discussion.


IMO.
Calling people names isn't doing much for your argument either. Please rest assured that there are perfectly rational people in the world who find questioning the historicity of Jesus right up there with denying that any Jews were killed in WWII or denying that NASA ever went to the moon. It is my earnestly held opinion that all these arguments are perfectly ridiculous, as I believe I have demonstrated.

How would you like it if Christians were running around denying the existence of Buddha? Would you think them skilful?
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