Why did you choose Theravada?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by pink_trike »

Chris wrote:
alan said:Well Well! thought I'd kick up a little dust and see what happened. And dust there is!
Yep - I was just going to post you a congratulatory message saying "Yaaaay alan! this is what you were looking for - and what you got so annoyed about when it didn't happen initially".

You should send Mr Pink and Mr Tilt a big Thank-you Card. :twothumbsup:

with metta
Chris
Aw...thanks, but Mr. Tilt should get all the credit. ;)
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Cafael Dust
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Cafael Dust »

To be frank, once practice is established, I think any alignment with a particular mental object like Theravada or Mahayana or Buddhism is like grasping at handfuls of seaweed while one's raft moves with the tide. That's not to say the traditions can't be practiced without identification.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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Dan74
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Dan74 »

Regarding the Lotus Sutra if people are truly interested, it may be worthwhile to read the following (a letter by Hakuin, the great 18th Century Rinzai master):

http://www.terebess.hu/zen/hakuin1.html#8

The meaning may still be obscure, but perhaps one should not rush to reject it so hastily when it was held as the king of all sutras by people like Dogen and Hakuin, for example.

What occurs to me is that some passages, like those "flowery descriptions" are written in a deep samadhi, they are "ecstatic" rather than rational discourses. So they cannot be read in the same way as one reads for instance the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta.

There is some material here if someone wants to do further study:

http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/Ryuei/Zen-LS-8.html


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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:Aw...thanks, but Mr. Tilt should get all the credit.
Oh, no. As has been pointed by another, it goes to you, hands down with your initial "increasingly" comment onwards. I simply asked for clarification and got turkeys.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
The meaning may still be obscure, but perhaps one should not rush to reject it so hastily when it was held as the king of all sutras by people like Dogen and Hakuin, for example.
This text, which introduced the term hinayana and put into the mouth of the Buddha the calling of those who do not agree with the Lotus garbage, may be the "king of sutras," but it has not a thing to say to the Theravada. In India the Lotus was not highly regarded within Mahayana circles.

If a person fails to have faith
but instead slanders this sutra,
...
The things he says
people will not believe,
the breath from his mouth will be constantly foul
...
If there are monks who,
for the sake of comprehensive wisdom,
seek the Law in every direction,
pressing palms together, gratefully accepting,
desiring only to accept and embrace
the sutra of the Great Vehicle
and
not accepting a single verse
of the other sutras
,
to persons such as this
it is permissible to preach it [the Lotus Sutra].
If a person, earnest in mind,
seeks this sutra
as though he were seeking the Buddha's relics,
and having gained and gratefully accepted it,
that person shows no intention
of seeking other sutras
and has never once given thought
to the writings of the non-Buddhist doctrines,
to a person such as this
it is permissible to preach it.


The Lotus Sutra Chapter 3
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Cafael Dust
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Cafael Dust »

I must lack wisdom. My roots are shallow. My heart is too pale and wormy to be nourished by the sutra's fine light. My eyes are filmy with the fat of ignorance, they reflect back to me only the poverty of my nature. My capacity is hin, my qualities are inferior. I lack both metta and ability.

This must be so, because I can't see the beauty in the lotus.

So why am I smiling? Someone must know.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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Dan74
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Dan74 »

I have no idea Cafael, but here's Hakuin's account of his initial and subsequent experience. My approach is to have an open mind about these things.
I left home to become a Buddhist monk when I was fourteen. I became discouraged before even a year was out. My head had been shaved smooth, I wore a black robe, but I hadn't seen any sign of the Dharma's marvelous working. I happened to hear that The Lotus Sutra was the king of all the scriptures the Buddha had preached. It was supposed to contain the essential meaning of all the buddhas. I got hold of a copy and read it through. But when I finished, I closed it with a heavy sigh. "This," I told myself, "is nothing but a collection of simple tales about cause and effect. True, mention is made of there being 'only one absolute vehicle,' and of 'the changeless unconditioned tranquility of all dharmas,' but on the whole it is what Lin-chi dismissed as 'mere verbal prescriptions for relieving the world's ills.' I'm not going to find what I'm looking for here."

I was deeply disillusioned. I didn't get over it for quite some time. Meanwhile, I lived as the priest of a small temple. I reached forty, the age when one is not supposed to be bothered any longer by doubts. One night, I decided to take another look at The Lotus Sutra. I got out my only lamp, turned up the wick, and began to read it once again. I read as far as the third chapter, the one on parables. Then, just like that, all the lingering doubts and uncertainties vanished from my mind. They suddenly ceased to exist. The reason for the Lotus's reputation as the "king of sutras" was now revealed to me with blinding clarity. Teardrops began cascading down my face like two strings of beads - they came like beans pouring from a ruptured sack. A loud involuntary cry burst from the depths of my being and I began sobbing uncontrollably. And as I did, I knew without any doubt that what I had realized in all those satoris I had experienced, what I had grasped in my understanding of those koans I had passed - had all been totally mistaken. I was finally able to penetrate the source of the free, enlightened activity that permeated Shoju's daily life. I also knew beyond any doubt that the tongue in the World-honored One's mouth moved with complete and unrestricted freedom. I realized I richly deserved a good thirty hard blows of the staff, just like Lin-chi!
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Monkey Mind
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Monkey Mind »

tiltbillings wrote:
Monkey Mind wrote:My university has a really good graduate studies library. If they dont't have something, they will arrange to get it on loan from even better libraries. What type of scholars? Is this a debate with historians, or archeologists, or social anthropologists? Point me in the right direction, and I will dig for journals. I can be patient, if it takes you a few days to get back to me, that's fine.
It is an historical debate, but you will a variety of different types involved. It is primarily a Buddhologist concern. Start with Richard Gombrich. He has articles in any number of journals, and what is useful, in addition to his own arguments, are the footnotes, which lead you further discussions. Heinz Bechert and Etienne Lamotte are two other names as well as Peter Harvey and Rupert Gethin. It may not be just journal but also books. If I were at home at present I could give a bit more detail.
Thanks, Tilt, but I was looking for guidance from either pink_trike or SeanPDX. I am not sure if your are speaking about the same thing as they, or if they are speaking of something different. Pink_trike, I accepted your invitation to research this myself, but I come up empty handed. SeanPDX, I have access to these mysterious scholarly journals, but I have come up empty handed. I am not being cheeky here, if there is such a scholarly debate I genuinely want to read about it. I suspect, however, that you made this stuff up to seem important.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by tiltbillings »

Monkey Mind wrote:
Thanks, Tilt, but I was looking for guidance from either pink_trike or SeanPDX.
Sorry to have intruded. The problem is that you are really not going to find in recent journals "Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise[sic]." You might want to go back 50 to 100 years or so. I can give some names of older scholars to research if you wish. See Ven Paññāsikhara's msg above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Cafael Dust
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Cafael Dust »

Dan 74:

Yes, I read that. I don't care if Ghandi, Bob Dylan and Buddha himself read it and liked it. If they jumped off a cliff I wouldn't. Now you may think the stuff coming up is irreverent, but I find the Lotus irreverent, and to be irreverent of the irreverent of that which should be revered is reverent :tongue: .
Further, they do not draw near to the five kinds of unmanly men or become friends with them.
What are the five types of unmanly men that Boddhisattvas must avoid if he is to speak this sutra in future ages?
He put forth his vast and long tongue which reached upward to the Brahma worlds. From all of his hair pores, he emitted lights of limitless, countless colors, all of which pervasively illuminated the worlds of the ten directions. In the same way, all the Buddhas seated on lion thrones beneath jeweled trees also put forth their vast and long tongues and emitted limitless lights.

When Shakyamuni Buddha and the Buddhas beneath the jeweled trees had manifested their spiritual powers for a full hundred thousand years, they withdrew their tongues.
Exactly how long is a Buddha's tongue and does it get dry after a hundred thousand years?
"The World Honored One, using the power of expedient devices, has spoken of the Thus Come One�s wisdom. Having gained from the Buddha the one day�s wage of Nirvana, we took it to be a great attainment; we had no ambition to seek the Great Vehicle. Besides, the wisdom of the Thus Come One had been set forth for the sake of the Bodhisattvas, and so he held no expectations regarding it. What is the reason? The Buddha knew that our minds took delight in petty Dharmas. He used the power of expedients to teach us in the appropriate manner, and we did not know that we were truly the Buddha�s sons.
Exactly how petty is the Pali Canon? Are ten Arhats better than a boddhisattva? Can a Buddha create a weight so heavy he can't lift it? etc
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by pink_trike »

Cafael Dust wrote:
He put forth his vast and long tongue which reached upward to the Brahma worlds. From all of his hair pores, he emitted lights of limitless, countless colors, all of which pervasively illuminated the worlds of the ten directions. In the same way, all the Buddhas seated on lion thrones beneath jeweled trees also put forth their vast and long tongues and emitted limitless lights.
If you read this:

Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge And Its Transmission Through Myth by Giorgio de Santillana (a professor of the history of science at MIT) and Hertha von Dechend (a scientist at Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität) - a nonfiction work of history and comparative mythology.

...you'll likely have a bit more insight into this style of writing. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, in order to understand the literature of a different time and place we need to be able to "read" (deconstruct, in order to correctly conceptually construct) them through the eyes of the time/place they were written - cognizant of the complexities of oral composition standards and patterns, structure, allegory, cultural views, etc...ancient writing doesn't "read" like we've been trained to read in modern culture. It isn't as simple as translating x word to mean x word, not by a long shot. Quite frequently in ancient writing, words and phrases aren't even serving the purpose that we take for granted when reading - conveying ordinary meaning...many times words and phrases are included as functional elements, not for their meaning, and often a single sentence can be conveying several parallel but completely unrelated meanings. And some words, phrases, sentences, symbols can be viewed as file drawers, making reference to concepts or complex knowledge and views that were known to those that were meant to know them. A surface reading of ancient literature gives us what the common folk were intended to get. A deeper, informed reading gave more, and more complex, and often completely unrelated information to those who were trained to "read" it.

This is why there is so much tension between secular scholars and religious scholars (and religious literalists). Religious folks like their religious texts to be "surface only, thanks" and aren't happy that scholars deconstruct and reveal, or worse, discover parallels with texts from other religions or from cultures that far predate when their texts are believed to have been composed.

Another good read would be:

From Deluge to Discourse: Myth, History, and the Generation of Chinese Fiction By Deborah Lynn Porter.

...in which she deconstructs Classical Chinese historiography and lays waste to the traditional reading of a particular set of Chinese historical myths.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:19 am, edited 10 times in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Cafael Dust
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by Cafael Dust »

Do you understand it and have insight into it, having read that book?
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by pink_trike »

Cafael Dust wrote:Do you understand it and have insight into it, having read that book?
Who knows? I at least have a better understanding of what I don't understand about that sutra.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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BlackBird
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by BlackBird »

I'd be quite interested in knowing how Mahayana practitioners see and or explain the creation of the Sutras. What is the general out look in Mahayana circles? I imagine that critical thinking is not exclusive to Theravada.

This is my opinion - Mahayana sutras are certainly not the word of the historical Buddha, and are clearly a later invention by some very intelligent individuals. These Sutras put their credibility on the fact that the Buddha is speaking them, do they not? Now if these Sutras are not the word of the historical Buddha, what is the logical implication of that? Can a Mahayana practitioner know and accept that the Sutras are not the word of the Buddha and still practice accordingly?

metta
Jack
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?

Post by pink_trike »

BlackBird wrote:I'd be quite interested in knowing how Mahayana practitioners see and or explain the creation of the Sutras. What is the general out look in Mahayana circles? I imagine that critical thinking is not exclusive to Theravada.

This is my opinion - Mahayana sutras are certainly not the word of the historical Buddha, and are clearly a later invention by some very intelligent individuals. These Sutras put their credibility on the fact that the Buddha is speaking them, do they not? Now if these Sutras are not the word of the historical Buddha, what is the logical implication of that? Can a Mahayana practitioner know and accept that the Sutras are not the word of the Buddha and still practice accordingly?

metta
Jack
Hi Jack,

In my opinion/experience, most Mahayana practitioners, like most Theravada practitioners, don't think or ask about the how/who/when of the sutras/suttas of their own tradition. The whole point of religious institution and religiosity is that the teachings should be accepted at face value on faith which is how most approach them.

There are those who practice in the Mahayana tradition that understand that the sutras employ the mythic as a conceptual devise, and let the mythic structure do what its intended to do. Its a classic shamanistic technique found in most ancient processes that deal with the refinement of perception - Theravada also, though not as overtly as in Mahayana. Who spoke/wrote them and when falls to the background and the mythic structure/experiential process moves to the foreground - this happens fairly easily because of the nature of the teacher/student relationship.

Its not so very different in Theravada - its a fact that we can't know for sure how much of the suttas can be attributed to an original Buddha - a consistent oral/written structure tells us nothing about the origin of any particular content found in any particular sutta. Computer analysis of ancient oral compositions have shown that the metering found throughout a composition, right down to the number of breathes and rising/falling inflections per line and stanza are commonly and precisely related to wide cultural/regional and period of time standards. That a body of oral composition/writing has the same precise metering and "voice" doesn't mean that one person spoke them...it only means that there was a complex science of oral composition applied and then retained in written format, as was common in oral tradition cultures. It is just as likely as not that the Theravada suttas provenance is as unknown as the the Mahayana sutras.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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