Emptiness and the true self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Returntospirit
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Emptiness and the true self

Post by Returntospirit »

I can't quite grasp the concept of emptiness and the reality of who I am. Until this moment I thought that the true self was the awareness behind the body and the mind. The mind is thinking and I am aware of that but I am not the one who is thinking. But upon reading about emptiness I begin to wonder what emptiness is and who am I if no real self exists. I would like some wisdom on this matter. Please give me your thoughts. Thank you.
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Ben
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Ben »

The doctrine of anatta is profound and hard to grasp.
Metzinger put it well when he suggested that the self is merely a computational aid to help process data streams from a number of diverse simultaneous sensory inputs.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Returntospirit
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Returntospirit »

But who is the experiencer or the silent witness who is aware of everything? And what is emptiness?
Paññāsikhara
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Returntospirit wrote:But who is the experiencer or the silent witness who is aware of everything? And what is emptiness?
Sounds like you may be looking for a Hindu forum with that "experiencer" and "silent witness" thing.
Certainly not Theravada buddhism.

Rather than a "witness", buddhism usually states that any given experience is a dependently arisen event.
Rather than experiencer experiences the experienced, it says with conditions, there is experience.
However, because subsequently there is another experience, and another, etc. some mistakenly think think that there is a common element, and experiencer, if you will.
This is where the problem begins.

The absence of such an experiencer is emptiness.
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Cafael Dust
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Cafael Dust »

There's just this.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
Returntospirit
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Returntospirit »

Paññāsikhara, I agree with you. This subject might be best directed to Hinduism but my understanding of the 7 stages of consciousness (just in case you don't know what I'm talking about here is a link http://www.psycanics.com/modules.php?na ... cle&sid=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is that Buddha attained the 7th stage. But do we not need to go through all the stages in order to access the highest (enlightenment) ? I am stuck in stage 4, Self awareness, how do I move beyond that into Samadhi and the higher stages?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by tiltbillings »

Returntospirit wrote:Paññāsikhara, I agree with you. This subject might be best directed to Hinduism but my understanding of the 7 stages of consciousness (just in case you don't know what I'm talking about here is a link http://www.psycanics.com/modules.php?na ... cle&sid=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is that Buddha attained the 7th stage. But do we not need to go through all the stages in order to access the highest (enlightenment) ? I am stuck in stage 4, Self awareness, how do I move beyond that into Samadhi and the higher stages?
This is warmed over Westernized Hindu stuff that nothing really to do with Buddhism in general and certainly nothing to do with the Theravada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Ben »

Returntospirit wrote:But who is the experiencer or the silent witness who is aware of everything? And what is emptiness?
For there is suffering, but none who suffers;
Doing exists although there is no doer;
Extinction is but no extinguished person;
Although there is a path, there is no goer'.

-- Vism XVI, 93
Sabbe dhamma anatta: all phenomena are not self (empty)

-- The Integrity of Emptiness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... iness.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

-- Nakulapita Sutta: To Nakulapita, SN22.1: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Ben
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Ben »

Returntospirit wrote:Paññāsikhara, I agree with you. This subject might be best directed to Hinduism but my understanding of the 7 stages of consciousness (just in case you don't know what I'm talking about here is a link http://www.psycanics.com/modules.php?na ... cle&sid=45" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) is that Buddha attained the 7th stage. But do we not need to go through all the stages in order to access the highest (enlightenment) ? I am stuck in stage 4, Self awareness, how do I move beyond that into Samadhi and the higher stages?
This is new-ageism and not related to Buddhadhamma. If you want to attain the highest attainment, Nibbana, you need to start walking on the path: The Noble Eightfold Path: The Way to the End of Suffering: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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IanAnd
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by IanAnd »

Returntospirit wrote:I can't quite grasp the concept of emptiness and the reality of who I am. . . . But upon reading about emptiness I begin to wonder what emptiness is and who am I if no real self exists. I would like some wisdom on this matter. Please give me your thoughts.
Paññāsikhara's explanation goes to the heart of the matter and is most succinctly correct about this (although this is not to say that others who have contributed are wrong). The realization of emptiness (and hence anatta) is a matter of insight as the result of personal insight into the processes that go into making up a "self." When one penetrates the meaning and significance of dependent co-arising (paticca samuppada) one realizes that there is no self other than the aggregate of elements that make up the five clinging aggregates (pancakkhandha) of personality view. That is your answer in a nutshell. On the other hand, realizing that nutshell is what the practice of the Buddhadhamma is all about.

Where you have gotten off the beaten path toward this insight and knowingness is in giving credence to the link you gave regarding the so-called "seven stages [or states] of consciousness." The explanation of consciousness given by that site is "wrong view" according to Buddhadhamma (and anyone else who has gained insight into the matter).

In order to overcome that wrong view, you would have to focus on cultivating a correct understanding of these phenomena according to the Dhamma. That cultivation entails observing the phenomena of consciousness in more detail than the "mystical" interpretation given on that site. (By the way, one of the definitions of "mysticism" is: "vague, obscure, or confused thinking or belief." This is what I'm referring to by using the word "mystical" to describe the interpretation of consciousness given by that site.).
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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phil
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by phil »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Returntospirit wrote:But who is the experiencer or the silent witness who is aware of everything? And what is emptiness?
Sounds like you may be looking for a Hindu forum with that "experiencer" and "silent witness" thing.
Certainly not Theravada buddhism.

Rather than a "witness", buddhism usually states that any given experience is a dependently arisen event.
Rather than experiencer experiences the experienced, it says with conditions, there is experience.
However, because subsequently there is another experience, and another, etc. some mistakenly think think that there is a common element, and experiencer, if you will.
This is where the problem begins.

The absence of such an experiencer is emptiness.



Hi Pannasikhara and all

Of course what you say is absolutely spot on from the point of view of the high deeper teachings, but as a beginner at the prey of very powerful gross defilements I find myself appreciating some Theravadin teachers who acknowledge that for those of us who are starting out, there *will* be the sense of an observer of what is going on. I mean, whether we understand the deep teachings in theory or not, that sense will be there. So the "silent witness" that Return to Spirit refers to seems to me to be in line with the way we will have to experience things for a good little while, if you know what I mean. What is that silent witness, that observer? As you say of course and as the teachers I refer to say of course, that silent witness will also be seen through. But to develop the conditions that lead to seeing through it, it seems to me that silent witness, that sense of a self that is headed in the right direction, is helpful, I think. But let it be said that I have been listening to a lot of Thanissaro Bhikkhu recently, and as we know he is not one to rush perceptions of anatta to say the least! :smile:

True self - not. A deluded sense of self? No fast way around it as far as I (so to speak) can see, and it can be put to good use by those of us who are primarily focussed on weakening the power of very gross defilements which have to be weakened before there can be conditions for the kind of panna that really sees anatta, or so it seems to me. I am very much about becoming a better person, a more wholesome-minded person, even as I understand in theory that in reality it is all about the operation of impersonal dhammas that are anatta etc. But I know some people who push that kind of deep understanding on beginners too soon (not saying that you are doing that) and who say that it must come to dominate one's Dhamma understanding right from the beginning. And of course that's not how the Buddha taught. I'm studyning Dhammapada these days, in Pali, with the commentary, and I'm interested by how many references to atta and taking care of atta and controlling atta and atta as one's master and so on and how few reminders there are in Buddhagosa's commentary that it is all about impersonal dhammas etc. Because anyone who studies Dhammapada should know that without needing to have it pointed out? No, I don't think so, because the Buddha didn't teach the deep truths to people until he knew their minds were ready, right?

Anyways, just a few of my thoughts on an interesting topic! Thanks.

Metta,

Phil
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Returntospirit wrote:But who is the experiencer or the silent witness who is aware of everything? And what is emptiness?
Emptiness means the absence of any experiencer — any person or being, self or soul.

There is only the experience. There is walking, but no one who walks; there is talking, but no one who talks; there is thought, but there is no thinker. The idea of a self or soul, person or being is just that — an idea or concept. It is empty and void of substance, and has the nature of an illusion. That is, the so-called self seems very real, and we all make use of the concept, but if we examine the reality systematically and carefully, the emptiness of the illusion will gradually become apparent.

This difficult topic is the first subject dealt with in the Debate of King Milinda: A Question on Concepts
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Lombardi4
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by Lombardi4 »

I highly recommend this lecture on the Five Aggregates and the Three Marks of Existence (impermanence, suffering, and nonself) by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

http://www.bodhimonastery.net/courses/T ... stence.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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acinteyyo
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by acinteyyo »

Hi Returntospirit,

the matter is already very well explained above. So I won't say much in addition.
If you want to find "the one" who is walking, "the one" who is talking "the one" who experiences thinking and so on..., examine those phenomena seriously. Everything of those phenomena which is impermanent cannot be considered as "the one". You asked "who am I..."? Everything which is impermanent cannot be considered as "I am this". Any phenomenon of which you find out that it is impermanent, you will know that this is not-self, not yours, not "I am this". Try to do it every moment, with everything. You will come to the conclusion that there is no thing which can be considered as "I am this" and then you'll see that the question "who am I" itself is an improper question, because such a question takes for granted that there actually is anything which can be considered as "I am this". You won't try to find a "who" anymore.
If you want to understand this truly, you have to examine your body, consciousness, feeling, perception and mind. Then understanding will arise and confusion about "the one" will cease.

best wishes, acinteyyo
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chownah
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Re: Emptiness and the true self

Post by chownah »

I think the Buddha taught that we should do our best to have no doctrine of self whatever....and I take this to mean that it matters not if there is a self or is no self or there is a "true" self or is not "true" self. If you are trying to ascertain which of these exist or don't exist or what they are or aren't they you are probably trying to develop a doctrine of self.....better to do your best to just see that things happen and that one of the things that happens is an idea that there is some grand thing called me.
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