"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:06 am


Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:32 am

Now that was underhand, but good marksmanship.

I'm not making it up as I go along. My definitions may not be yours but I do read stuff. I'm also basing a lot on what I experience - I mean I have the luxury of being able to say to myself 'yeah, I know what you're talking about' when I read spiritual texts. And yes, about the odder things like Chi and different bodies and so on too. That doesn't really help with arguments though, which can be a bit frustrating; experience is not 'proof'. Hopefully I'll become more eloquent later on :tongue: .

My point about context is that words don't just get defined by other words and opinions of words in some vast hypertext reaching all through time and space. They sometimes refer to real things too.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:37 am

Oh all right, Manapa, a state free of sin. Talk about splitting hairs.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:46 am

Ok, here you go, this says it better than prose, as well as I can say it at any rate. I'm off to bed now, but this has been fun, so merry Christmas and I'll see you all later.

no-doctrine

I tell you to think of onion skins furling
or rainforests like faces. I tell you the heads of pins
swarm with angels, and we are everything
that is neither metal nor Elohim. I tell you the jewel of the dance
is a pearl that everyone is running on
and one must not slip.

You ask what is life’s substance, its shape? I say
quicksilver or sand, labyrinth or symphony.
This tapestry tangles smooth, weaves past anew
as present glances by. Storm and eye
or not I and form no new words please

for what we cannot describe;
such words labour breath into barbed wire.

I cannot hear myself,
I will not listen, I do not desire to grasp the philosopher’s stone
or the unifying theory of hearts.

I must take these words to the river;
the water will make them its own.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Cittasanto
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Re: "Luminous, monks, is the mind."

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:52 am

here are some thoughts on context had a look at my thesasaurus and thing the order is interesting and relevant in my interpretation atleast, although the order is going to be accidental.
we have to get what we mean across but at the same time this needs to be understood by others, or glaiket ken.

setting, where we are when using words
background, what it is referring to
circumstances, what we are replying to
milieu, what the words mean to us
situation, who we are with
environment what the words mean to others
framework, how the wording is put
perspective, our experiance or viewpoint


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:56 am


Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:50 am

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:02 pm


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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:20 pm

Hi All,
there are three forms of conciet
better than
worse than
same as.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Fede
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Fede » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:26 pm

aren't we getting a bit off-topic here?

Just a question, because I'm losing all sense of the thread, which was in essence, (eventually) a question on the compatibility and possibility of continuing to practice Buddhism whilst courting a person of Islamic faith....

The answer's no.
Simple.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

Cafael Dust
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:48 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:50 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Fede
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Fede » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:57 pm

Doesn't help you, perhaps.
But this thread isn't about you.
It's about the OPs dilemma in being in love with an Islamic woman.

The situation is simple.
Open and broad-minded as Buddhists may be, Islam doesn't work that way.

Islam considers itself to be the true and only religion, and anybody moving away from Islam is considered to commit a sin punishable by death.
Anyone wishing to involve themselves with someone from Islam, and has the intention of committing to a full term relationship, has to convert to Islam and follow Islam as their one and only religion.

What the heck is 'patrician' about it?
It's a fact. It's Islamic law, and as such has to be accepted as such.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:26 pm

There is no Islam, there are only people who practice Islam as a set of teachings, as part of a society, as culture, Koran etc. The sentence 'Islam considers' is meaningless.

The religion has no centralised authority in the same way as, say, Catholicism. But I know people are going to trot out the same tired stereotypes and see their mental images of scimitar-wielding, turban wearing fanatics and suicide bombers. I was reading an account by some Christians in... where was it? Syria or some Muslim country, and they'd converted to Christianity from Islam thirty years ago or so, and they were saying 'I don't understand, we converted and there was no bad word spoken against us?'.

Agreed, it's punishable by death in several countries, but that doesn't mean said law represents the whole of Islam, any more than you can say all Buddhists believe that this age is too corrupt for people to be enlightened in, or that women can't teach, or another of the oddball notions.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Fede
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Fede » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:02 pm

Last edited by Fede on Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/

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tiltbillings
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:31 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:23 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous, monks, is the mind."

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:01 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
Cittasanto
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Re: "Luminous, monks, is the mind."

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:13 pm

Hi Cafael,
what you have put doesn't make every tradition the same, or your interpretation of a traditions means of expressing their concepts the same as a similar but distinctly different expression from another tradition, nor your interpretation the same as that traditions.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous, monks, is the mind."

Postby Cafael Dust » Sun Dec 27, 2009 5:28 pm

The quote explains the Buddha taught the mind is inherently luminous (nibbana) but covered with defilements (ignorance). Which is what I wrote previously - I think these are very basic Buddhist concepts held by pretty much all traditions. I don't think they're contentious assertions or that they don't make sense in the ideology of any tradition.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.


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