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Secret Book?? - Dhamma Wheel

Secret Book??

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Cittasanto
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Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:09 pm

just reading 'On the Practice of Buddhist Meditation According to the Pali Nikayas and Exegetical Sources' by Dr. Rupert Gethin from the University of Bristol, and on page 13 of the PDF or 212 of the book this is found in (don't know the book sorry) it mentions that the Visudimagga says something allong the lines of "Teaching him 'secret books' (Vism III 123-27)" I don't have a copy of the Visudhimagga anymore to look at what it says myself but this seams rather strange to me for it to mention secret books? anyone have any ideas what these would be?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby cooran » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:44 pm

Hello Manapa,

Vis. III.126 in DESCRIPTION OF CONCENTRATION says:

"When he dedicates himself to a teacher, he should say 'I relinguish this my person to you, venerable sir'. For one who has not dedicated his person thus becomes unresponsive to correction, hard to speak to, and unamenable to advice, or he goes where he likes without asking the teacher. Consequently the teacher does not help him with either material things or the Dhamma, and he does not train him in the cryptic books. [note 35]
Failing to get these two inds of help he finds no footing in the Dispensation, and he soon comes down to misconducting himself or to the lay state. But if he has ded icated his person, he is not unresponsive to correction, does not go about as he liikes, is easy to speak to, and lives only in dependence onthe teacher. He gets the twofold help from the teacher and attains growth, increase and fulfilment in the Dispensation. Like the Elder Cula-Pindapataka-'Tissa's pupils."{

Note 35 : "The cryptic books": the meditation-subject books dealing with the truths, the dependent origination, ec., which are profound and associated with voidness' (Pm.III), Cf. MA ii, 264; AA. commentary to A. Catujkka-nipata, 180.

metta
Chris
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:34 pm

Thanks Chris!
Maybe it isn't specifically secret books but a willingness to teach these aspects of the teachings to the student?

wonder if any of our esteamed bhikkhus know of secret books? (denial of secrecy will only prove secrecy :tongue:) but it also reminds me of Anathapindikas death, asking Sariputta to ask the Buddha not to conceal the more difficult teachings from the lay followers! although I may have the people situation slightly wrong?


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Kare
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:18 pm

The word is guu.lha, which can mean 'cryptic' or 'hidden'.

But it is interesting to compare with other translations.

In Nyanatiloka's German translation (1927) we find 'tiefsinnigen Text' (profound text). And in Christian Maës' French translation (2002) we find 'textes profonds' (profound texts).
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:38 pm

I did actually pull up my dictionary program to double check what cryptic means

1. ambiguous or obscure: deliberately mysterious and seeming to have a hidden meaning
2. secret: secret or hidden in some way
3. indicating solution indirectly: describes crossword puzzles, clues, or anagrams with an indirect solution
4. using codes: relating to or using codes or similar techniques
5. zoology protective: describes body markings or colouring that camouflages an animal

I was taking it to be a meaning connected to the first three so profound may actually say that quite clearly? may not be a direct English translation but it does make more sense, to me at least.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Kare
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:57 pm

It might be even better to check the online PTS dictionary:

Here we find that gambhira (deep) is glossed with gulha. So the German and the French translations seem to be justified.
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:44 am

just had a look up on my pali lookup program (aren't I a tech wizz)

gambhīra : [adj.] deep; profound; hard to perceive. (nt.), depth.
gambhīratā : [f.] depth.
gambhīrāvabhāsa : [(gambhīra + avabhāsa) adj.] having the appearance of depth or profundity.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby fig tree » Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:15 am


Paññāsikhara
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:47 am

My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Cittasanto
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:09 pm

hi Paññāsikhara

Do you mean Pts is the Patisambhidamagga?

I know I am in all likelyhood being stupid here because I am tired but just was to clarify (excuses excuses!)


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Paññāsikhara
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:31 pm

Yes. Big section on sunnata in the Patisambhidamagga, much more than probably the entire rest of Theravadin literature put together. It is really curious too, because the types of sunnata given are about 80% not found in other texts, of any school. As opposed to a series of other types of sunnata for which one can kind of trace the development over a couple of centuries. From whence they came, and whence they went, I know not. (And neither does any other scholar, as far as I can tell, and I've been looking!)
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:33 pm


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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:51 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Re: Secret Book??

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:02 pm


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Kare
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Kare » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:18 pm

Mettāya,
Kåre

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Cittasanto
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Re: Secret Book??

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:43 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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