Buddhagosa

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:00 am

(A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

Element

Re: Buddhagosa

Postby Element » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:(A. X, 62): "No first beginning of the craving for existence can be perceived, o monks, before which it was not and after which it came to be. But it can he perceived that craving for existence has its specific condition. I say, o monks, that also craving for existence has its condition that feeds it (sáharam) and is not without it. And what is it? 'Ignorance', one has to reply."

You did not reply to the previous question Tilt about MN 38.

Exchanging quotes is the same as mere opinions of "right" and "wrong".

The suttas are full of mundance & supramundane quotes.

Next, you will pull up some mundane quote about endless samsara.

Keep the discussion on the level of supramundane dhamma.

If one cannot discern a beginning of ignorance, how can it be ended?

You are misunderstanding AN X.62. You have turned it into a doctrine of eternalism rather than a doctrine of dukkha nirodho.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:18 am

Better you read the text Tilt. This is not a kindergarten.


I have read the text, but I do not see your point. Please be kind enough to draw it out.

Nexr, you will pull up some mundane quote about endless samsara.


Probably.

Keep the discussion on the level of supramundane dhamma.


Now, that is an interesting distinction, but not yet convincing.

If one cannot discern a beginning of ignorance, how can it be ended?


Why does one have to see the beginning of ignorance to stop it? Explain, if you would be so kind, what you might mean by seeing the beginning of ignorance.

You are misunderstanding AN X.62.


Possible, but not yet shown to be so.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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tiltbillings
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
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Re: Buddhagosa

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:28 am

"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1

"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16

Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

Element

Re: Buddhagosa

Postby Element » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:38 am

tiltbillings wrote:Why does one have to see the beginning of ignorance to stop it? Explain, if you would be so kind, what you might mean by seeing the beginning of ignorance.

Buddhagosa has said the wheel never ends. Stopping the wheel requires the seeing of ignorance arising now. Its 'beginning' has no relevance to stopping the wheel. Buddha did not talk about dependent origination like buddhagosa did. buddhagosa has convoluted various dhammas.
Becoming's Wheel reveals no known beginning;
No maker, no experiencer there;
Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere
It ever halts; for ever it is spinning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:50 am

Buddhagosa has said the wheel never ends. Stopping the wheel requires the seeing of ignorance arising now.


It certainly never stops as long as there is no awakening, "seeing of ignorance arising [and falling] now."

Its 'beginning' has no relevance to stopping the wheel.


Okay, but from what you wrote earlier its seems that you were suggesting somehow that it did.

Buddha did not talk about dependent origination like buddhagosa did. buddhagosa has convoluted various dhammas.


Okay. In what way has Buddhaghosa "convoluted various dhammas?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

Element

Re: Buddhagosa

Postby Element » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1

"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16

Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?

this quote is a general quote about samsara not the sublime dhamma of paticcasamupata.

mn 38 talks about the here & now arising and cessation of paticcasummupada

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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhagosa

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:42 am

Element wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Bhikkhus, the round is beginningless. Of the beings that travel and trudge through this round, shut in as they are by ignorance and fettered by craving, no first beginning is describable." SN 15:1

"That both I and you have to travel and trudge through this long round is owing to our not discovering, not penetrating, four truths. What four? They are: (I) the noble truth of suffering, (II) the noble truth of the origin of suffering, (III) the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, and (IV) the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering." DN 16

Now, I suppose these are mundane dhamma, but if so, why?

this quote is a general quote about samsara not the sublime dhamma of paticcasamupata.

mn 38 talks about the here & now arising and cessation of paticcasummupada


There are two quotes here that go together rather nicely. The second directly mentioned the Fout Noble Truths, which is a specific application of a general formula of paticcasummupada: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html

These things are, of course, talked about from many different perspectives.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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