Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

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Paññāsikhara
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Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Hi

Didn't know where to put this, but have just finished reading Johannes Bronkhorst's book Buddhist Teaching in India, and am now on to Greater Magadha.
Just wondering if anybody else had read them or not, and was up for some discussion?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by tiltbillings »

Haven't read and not familiar with him. Some background, maybe?

Are the books worth reading?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:Haven't read and not familiar with him. Some background, maybe?
review of the former
Are the books worth reading?
1. Yes, and 2. appears to be yes.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Haven't read and not familiar with him. Some background, maybe?
review of the former
Are the books worth reading?
1. Yes, and 2. appears to be yes.
I don't think I'll be buying Greater Magadha at $186 anytime soon, but the other one @ $20 looks possible.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Cittasanto »

Paññāsikhara wrote:Hi

Didn't know where to put this, but have just finished reading Johannes Bronkhorst's book Buddhist Teaching in India, and am now on to Greater Magadha.
Just wondering if anybody else had read them or not, and was up for some discussion?
Great Maghada
Beschreibung
Greater Magadha, roughly the eastern part of the Gangetic plain of northern India, has so far been looked upon as deeply indebted to Brahmanical culture. Religions such as Buddhism and Jainism are thought of as derived, in one way or another, from Vedic religion. This belief is defective in various respects. This book argues for the importance and independence of Greater Magadha as a cultural area until a date close to the beginning of the Common Era. In order to correct the incorrect notions, two types of questions are dealt with: questions pertaining to cultural and religious dependencies, and questions relating to chronology. As a result a modified picture arises that also has a bearing on the further development of Indian culture. [Brill]

unfortunately at around £100 out of my range to buy any time soon, but it does sound very interesting, and reminds me of something I read a while ago, about a place which was basically a hot spot for religious and philosophical teachers, much in the same way Athens market was (cant remember the name of the area in athens, or the place in the article although I think it was in Magadha).
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Bankei
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Bankei »

see http://gigapedia.com/items/274084/great ... -2--india-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Ben »

Hi Bhante
I've had time to read the customer review of Greater Magadha on Amazon and it looks fascinating! I would love to be able to afford that book, but as Tilt says, at $US186, its out of my price range. On the other hand, Buddhist teaching in India might be less divorce-inducing!
Thanks for the recommendations Venerable!
metta

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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Paññāsikhara
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Oh yeah, I forgot about the price tag on the big one, it is kind of scary! I've got the Uni library copy for now.
The Teaching one is very reasonable though. I'll maybe put a few highlights here, sometime later.
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Ben
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Ben »

Thank you Bhante!
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote: have just finished reading Johannes Bronkhorst's book Buddhist Teaching in India
So, how does this compare to Gethin's FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote: have just finished reading Johannes Bronkhorst's book Buddhist Teaching in India
So, how does this compare to Gethin's FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM?
Hmmm, I haven't read all of Gethin's Foundations, but what I recall,* Gethin's a bit Pali centric, lots more stuff on Buddhaghosa as a kind of default sectarian buddhism teaching. But, that's what we tend to expect from the English, good old Pali Text Society and all that. Bronkhorst uses more European scholarship, lot's of stuff from the Germans and French, which tends to be a bit more balanced. More Sanskrit too, which is his specialty, after all.

Bronkhorst just focuses on "buddhist teachings", and he gives a little explanation in his Methodology, and doesn't deal with who the Buddha was. (Though he never makes any comment doubting his existence, which he could easily do in a sentence or two.)

But in the end, the two kind of cover similar ground.

* If I recall correctly, that is!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote: Hmmm, I haven't read all of Gethin's Foundations, but what I recall,* Gethin's a bit Pali centric, lots more stuff on Buddhaghosa as a kind of default sectarian buddhism teaching. But, that's what we tend to expect from the English, good old Pali Text Society and all that. Bronkhorst uses more European scholarship, lot's of stuff from the Germans and French, which tends to be a bit more balanced. More Sanskrit too, which is his specialty, after all.
What is too bad is a lack of access to Japanese sources.

I ordered Bronkhorst's book. Should have it by Weds.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by seanpdx »

I've read most of "Buddhist Teachings", thinking about purchasing "Greater Magadha". Bronkhorst is great to read. If you've never read any of his work, you definitely should. He also wrote "The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India", "The Buddha and the Jainas Reconsidered" (part of a back-and-forth with Gombrich), and "The Two Sources of Indian Asceticism", amongst others. "Buddhist Teachings" is an english translation of "Die buddhistische lehre" (2000). Swiss(?) uni professor. Where Gombrich more or less explains oddities in the canon via metaphor/allegory/skill-in-means, Bronkhorst sees considerable third-party influence (particularly via Jainism).
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by tiltbillings »

Bronkhorst: "We, cautiously, opt for the general principle that the teaching that the acient discourses ascribe to the buddha can indeed be ascribed to him, pages 7-8 BUDDHIST TEACHING IN INDIA.

The book looks intersting and to be worth reading. I am not sure as I have poked through it that is is better than Gethin's better oraganized book that covers the same ground.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Bronkhorst: Greater Magadha, & Buddhist Teaching in India

Post by Paññāsikhara »

seanpdx wrote:I've read most of "Buddhist Teachings", thinking about purchasing "Greater Magadha". Bronkhorst is great to read. If you've never read any of his work, you definitely should. He also wrote "The Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India", "The Buddha and the Jainas Reconsidered" (part of a back-and-forth with Gombrich), and "The Two Sources of Indian Asceticism", amongst others. "Buddhist Teachings" is an english translation of "Die buddhistische lehre" (2000). Swiss(?) uni professor. Where Gombrich more or less explains oddities in the canon via metaphor/allegory/skill-in-means, Bronkhorst sees considerable third-party influence (particularly via Jainism).
The beginning of Great Magadha which I have read so far seems to also focus a fair bit on the two traditions of meditation in ancient india. He mentions a bit of this in Buddhist Teachings, too. The whole "Narada & Musila" debate to which it is closely related in the internal Buddhist traditions, which people like de la Vallee Poussin, Gombrich, Bodhi, Schmithausen and other great scholars have all had a go at - and often reached very different conclusions! - is a very interesting one.
Tilt wrote:Bronkhorst: "We, cautiously, opt for the general principle that the teaching that the acient discourses ascribe to the buddha can indeed be ascribed to him, pages 7-8 BUDDHIST TEACHING IN INDIA.

The book looks intersting and to be worth reading. I am not sure as I have poked through it that is is better than Gethin's better oraganized book that covers the same ground.
Thanks for the quote, viz that other thread... :thinking:

He tends to be quite skeptical, he is certainly not in the "true believer" category at all! And, as Sean says, sees much influence here and there. So, I find it interesting that somebody who is that skeptical, still holds that ("cautiously") their was a person called the Buddha, and those ancient discourses are pretty much what he taught.

Like a lot of things, but I still think that having a second (or third, fourth, etc.) opinion from somebody who knows what they are talking about, is always helpful. I though that Bronkhorst's book was also quite well organized, too.

As Norman said: "What hasn't been done, should be done, and what has been done, should be done again." (quote from memory, but should be pretty darn close).
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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