Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Dhammanando wrote: If one considers those features of men's and women's bodies that are differentiated by the gender-controlling faculties, it seems that in every case the male features are stronger, less susceptible to injury, and more versatile for nearly every end save that of attracting mates and child-rearing.
Hello Venerable Dhammanando

Thanks for your comment.

In the process you describe though, you seem to have missed one important fact.
Women can and do well pretend to be weaker than they are in order to attract mates, for this is what usually pleases the male ego.

Then still remains the question, to what extent is this portrayed female weakness an over-simplification and a self-fulfilling prophecy?

At least, from personal observation, even though females usually have weaker body features, as you say, they are also more persistent than males.
This seems to be an evolutionary coincidence that is necessary for what you deprecatingly described as "child-rearing".

Perhaps, we should not forget that the Dhamma, as well and perfectly spoken by the Buddha as it is, is none the less adapted to the dusty ears of the people who used to listen to it 2600 years ago; and it probably requires no less examination by reason than it did when the Buddha invited us to examine it by reason.

:namaste:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Cap,
thecap wrote:In the process you describe though, you seem to have missed one important fact.
Women can and do well pretend to be weaker than they are in order to attract mates, for this is what usually pleases the male ego.
I didn't miss it. It just isn't relevant to the question that Jason was raising. The fact that women's bodies are weaker and more easily injured than those of men lends support to the abhidhammikas' claim that the femininity rūpadhammas are generated by past akusala kamma and masculinity rūpadhammas by past kusala kammas. The fact that women have the canniness to make the best of a bad lot doesn't negate this. A one-legged beggar, by eliciting more sympathy from passers-by, might well make a better living than a two-legged beggar; nonetheless, it remains the case that two-leggedness is the more desirable state.
Then still remains the question, to what extent is this portrayed female weakness an over-simplification and a self-fulfilling prophecy?

At least, from personal observation, even though females usually have weaker body features, as you say, they are also more persistent than males.
This may be the case, but it goes beyond the issue that my reply to Jason was addressing, which was male and female physical features considered in themselves.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

I did not read the entire thread very closely, so pardon if this point was already raised.

Gotama Buddha was not eager to have a bhikkuni order. He even said it would shorten or weaken his Dhamma (something like that). Perhaps it was only the quality of women in his time, perhaps not.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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Jason
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

Will,
Will wrote:I did not read the entire thread very closely, so pardon if this point was already raised.

Gotama Buddha was not eager to have a bhikkuni order. He even said it would shorten or weaken his Dhamma (something like that). Perhaps it was only the quality of women in his time, perhaps not.
I do not think it has been discussed in this thread, but that topic has been raised here.

Jason
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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piotr
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by piotr »

Hi,

It seems to me that the statement "It is impossible that a woman should be the perfect rightfully Enlightened One", is unendearing and disagreeable to some people here. Therefore I would like to raise another question regarding this matter. Since Tathāgata's speech, according to Abhaya-sutta (MN 58), is only about what is both factual, true, & beneficial, then what is beneficial and conducive to the practice in this statement? I don't think that it was meant to despise anybody.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Jason
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jason »

That is a good question, piotr.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Jechbi
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Jechbi »

Elohim wrote:That is a good question, piotr.
I suspect the answer is that the entire "Discourse on Many Elements," when read in context, appears to an encouragement to understand things in a manner similar to the way they are presented in the Abhidhamma (although I realize that came later). Ven. Dhammanando seems to be hinting at something along these lines, tho I might have misunderstood him. Remember that the discourse was given to monks, not lay people.
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But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammanando wrote:I would suggest, however, that the sexual differences produced by the gender-controlling faculties are indeed of a sort that tend to make a male body something more to be wished for than a female one, all other things being equal. If one considers those features of men's and women's bodies that are differentiated by the gender-controlling faculties, it seems that in every case the male features are stronger, less susceptible to injury, and more versatile for nearly every end save that of attracting mates and child-rearing.
I would go even further and say that being born a man in a male-dominated society is the product of better karma than being born a woman in a male-dominated society. Just as being born rich is from better karma than being born poor. Note that just as this doesn't make a rich man superior to a poor man, it doesn't make a man superior to a woman.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

piotr wrote:what is beneficial and conducive to the practice in this statement?
I do not know, but keep in mind it was a] beneficial to the people the Buddha said it to, b] probably beneficial to certain types of people today, and c] probably not beneficial to certain other types of people today.

We today are in the unfortunate position of being able to read everything the Buddha said, instead of just those bits that are beneficial to our own practice.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Piotr,
piotr wrote:then what is beneficial and conducive to the practice in this statement?
In the Mahāsīhanāda Sutta (MN. 12) the first of the ten Tathāgata powers is called "knowledge of the possible and the impossible" (ṭhānaṭṭhāna-ñāṇa):
  • “Here, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the possible as possible and the impossible as impossible. And that is a Tathāgata’s power that the Tathāgata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahma.
And in the Vibhanga the Buddha's knowledge of the impossibility of a woman being a Sammāsambuddha, a universal monarch, Māra, Brahmā etc. is classed as part of this Tathāgata power.

So perhaps his statements are simply a demonstration of this power, aimed at reinforcing his disciples' faith.
  • ye bhikkhave buddhe pasannā, agge te pasannā
    agge kho pana pasannānaṃ aggo vipāko hoti.

    “Those, bhikkhus, who have faith in the Buddha, have faith in the best;
    And those who have faith in the best, theirs is the best result.”
    (AN.ii.35)
Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Annapurna
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by Annapurna »

Element wrote:
Individual wrote:Before trying to provide a good answer to your question, it would be good to first distinguish several bad answers to this question. A person could not rightfully say that women cannot become Buddhas because it's been repeatedly said, because it's traditional belief, because it's in scripture, because it's logical, it's an assumption of Theravada, it's a bias, or because it has been said by many monks over the years.

Theravada asserts that Buddhas and Arahants are essentially equal (that the Buddha's enlightenment isn't superior to the Arahant's), but only that Buddhas achieve such enlightenment of their own effort, without outside help, but Arahants rely on Buddhas. In this regard, Buddhas might have more siddhis and more expansive knowledge, but the essential enlightenment (into the nature of notself, impermanence, dukkha, and liberation from samsara) is said to be same.

Now, considering that a Buddha's enlightenment is roughly the same as an Arahant's, and considering that there have been female Arahants, it seems difficult to claim that women can never be Buddhas... ever. We also have to consider that fatalism is a wrong view, so saying that women can't become Buddhas, doesn't seem to be justified. Peter's and Drolma's theory seems to be the correct one, although I'm not certain if it's a Classical Theravadin perspective.
Dear Individual

A woman cannot attain Buddhahood through her own efforts and then establish the Buddhist religion. That is impossible.

First, a woman has little natural spiritual authority & power and would be readily dismissed by spiritual seekers, kings, the powerful, etc. For a person to establish a religion, they must exude a natural authority and awe, as we read of the Buddha or Jesus.

Second, I theorise, much of a woman's attainment depends in part or initially on the sublimation of her feminine affections upon a man. Most female practitioners are caught up in some kind of guru yoga.

Temples and churches are full of women but the world is not full of female arahants. If Jesus or the Buddha was a woman, the temples and churches would not be full of women, praying for their hopes and wishes and fears.

It is like on Buddhachat. I little birdie has told me you have a female admirer, who thinks you have authority. :heart:

For your consideration,

Element
.... a woman has little natural spiritual authority & power ...
.:lol:

You don't seem to have met women of spiritual value in person so far. Luckily, I can say I have, but most men would have easily overlooked them, blinded by the physical surface of a taller man.
I theorise, much of a woman's attainment depends in part or initially on the sublimation of her feminine affections upon a man. Most female practitioners are caught up in some kind of guru yoga.
Yes, you theorize, but I would recommend first hand experience instead..
Temples and churches are full of women but the world is not full of female arahants. If Jesus or the Buddha was a woman, the temples and churches would not be full of women, praying for their hopes and wishes and fears.
Many of Women's hopes and wishes and fears are for men, ignorant, selfish, abusive and unenlightened husbands, who carefully avoid temples, so they can merrily continue on their sex craving, power obsessed downward course, until they hit bottom in hell. :evil:

Typically, when the woman finally denies her love and finds more happiness in churches and temples, men become bitter misogynists badmouthing what they have lost control over.

:zzz:
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Peter wrote: We today are in the unfortunate position of being able to read everything the Buddha said, instead of just those bits that are beneficial to our own practice.
And perhaps, it also gives us the unique opportunity to practise thinking for ourselves and investigating the Dhamma with reason. :console:
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kc2dpt
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by kc2dpt »

thecap wrote:
Peter wrote:We today are in the unfortunate position of being able to read everything the Buddha said, instead of just those bits that are beneficial to our own practice.
And perhaps, it also gives us the unique opportunity to practise thinking for ourselves and investigating the Dhamma with reason. :console:
What do you mean? :?
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Peter wrote:What do you mean? :?
I meant that I don't think it's an unfortunate position to have Dhamma at our fingertips.
thecap
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Post by thecap »

Dhammanando wrote:I didn't miss it. It just isn't relevant to the question that Jason was raising.
It is relevant to the topic.
The fact that women's bodies are weaker and more easily injured than those of men lends support to the abhidhammikas' claim that the femininity rūpadhammas are generated by past akusala kamma and masculinity rūpadhammas by past kusala kammas.
Does this mean that being a woman is a punishment for past misdeeds?
The fact that women have the canniness to make the best of a bad lot doesn't negate this.
What "bad lot", Bhante?
A one-legged beggar, by eliciting more sympathy from passers-by, might well make a better living than a two-legged beggar; nonetheless, it remains the case that two-leggedness is the more desirable state.
Women aren't cripples.
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