Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

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Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:23 pm

Hello,

First off I wasn't sure where to post this, feel free to move it if needs be. I was just wanting to start a topic about various practices, that may or may not have a place in Buddhism, things like those who supposedly can contact the dead from beyond the grave, those that can supposedly predict our future, and those that claim to be able to read minds.

I don't really know to what extent these kinds of things have become involved in Buddhism, but that is kind of irrelevant, do you practice or believe in these arts? I just wanted to start a topic on this because I thought it might be an interesting discussion potentially (I suppose it depends whether or not we all agree! If we all agree it will probably die away fairly quickly)

My own personal view is that such practices are very harmful. The lowest in my eyes being so called 'psychic mediums' who exploit people's desire to hold on to their deceased loved ones for cash. I can't believe that these people aren't arrested for fraudulent practices and that even to this day it is considered a ligitimate profession. Some of these fraudsters even make big money from TV shows.

'Psychic mediums' use techniques such as 'Barum statements' - statements that apply to most people, with the illusion that they specifically apply to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_statements and 'cold reading' - a cunning use of wording, phrasing and guess work to extract information from the client and make it seem as though you are miraculously getting this information from somewhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading. Combine this with the client's desire to believe that this person can really contact the dead and you have a very nice scam on the go.

Divination is harmful because people actually believe it and might make dangerous desisions based upon the advice given. I don't need to say alot more about why that is dangerous.

I think that in actual fact some of these techniques etc are interesting and could provide a good show, but I think it is wrong to dupe the customer into thinking that something supernatural is occuring, especially since some of these people actually take it very seriously.

The reason I think these kinds of practices are harmful, and not just quirky is because they often provide advice to the client. A psychic medium gathers vague information in a few moments from the client and then proceeds to tell them that they should pursue their love of painting over their steady career, or that they should leave their partner. This is ridiculous! They don't even know the person, they are just going from vague things that they have managed to work out. People are willing to believe it, and base decisions upon it, to me that is insane - and these people really need to learn to question these things. And if they want advice ask someone who knows them, or a professional councilor!

So there's my view, such superstitious practices are fraudulent and harmful. Do you agree? How does this relate to the Dhamma? I don't know too much about how these practices are involved with Buddhism, but personally, I certainly hope that they aren't involved at all!

So discuss away, or not

Best wishes
Laurens
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Moggalana » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:35 pm

Laurens wrote:So there's my view, such superstitious practices are fraudulent and harmful. Do you agree? How does this relate to the Dhamma? I don't know too much about how these practices are involved with Buddhism, but personally, I certainly hope that they aren't involved at all!

Sure, superstition shouldn't have a place in the dhamma. On that, I agree with you. But what about the so called 'pysic powers' (iddhi), which one can achieve through jhanas? Merely superstition? I don't know. I guess, I'll have to find out ;) Until then, it remains an open question to me.

Psychic powers in Buddhism are summed up in six categories. First, Divyacaksus - the divine eye, which can instantaneously view anything material anywhere. Second, Divyasrotra - the divine ear, which can hear any sound anywhere. Third, Paracitta-jnana - the ability to know the thoughts of other minds. Fourth, Purvanivasanusmrti-jnana - the ability to know former lives of oneself and others. Fifth, Raddi-saksatkriya - the ability to be anywhere (teleportation, multiplication of forms) or do anything at will (shapeshifting, "defy" natural physics - such as walking on water, through walls and levitating). Sixth, Asravaksaya-jnana - the ability to eliminate all defilements (the extinction of spiritual "outflows"). The first five abilities are considered mundane, while only the last is supramundane, realised only when enlightened. It is its attainment that clearly differentiates the liberated from the mere "wizard"!

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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:47 pm

Moggalana wrote:Sure, superstition shouldn't have a place in the dhamma. On that, I agree with you. But what about the so called 'pysic powers' (iddhi), which one can achieve through jhanas? Merely superstition? I don't know. I guess, I'll have to find out ;) Until then, it remains an open question to me.


I should have made it clear, but I think it goes without saying that those who make cash for their 'psychic' abilities are probably not using powers attained through the jhanas.

As for the powers attainable through jhanas, I don't know, I've never seen it demonstrated so I remain skeptical - which is probably a good thing, or else I might get hung up on attaining them!
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Moggalana » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:49 pm

Laurens wrote:I should have made it clear, but I think it goes without saying that those who make cash for their 'psychic' abilities are probably not using powers attained through the jhanas.

As for the powers attainable through jhanas, I don't know, I've never seen it demonstrated so I remain skeptical - which is probably a good thing, or else I might get hung up on attaining them!

Agreed!
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:58 pm

Laurens wrote:Hello,

First off I wasn't sure where to post this, feel free to move it if needs be. I was just wanting to start a topic about various practices, that may or may not have a place in Buddhism, things like those who supposedly can contact the dead from beyond the grave, those that can supposedly predict our future, and those that claim to be able to read minds.

I don't really know to what extent these kinds of things have become involved in Buddhism, but that is kind of irrelevant, do you practice or believe in these arts? I just wanted to start a topic on this because I thought it might be an interesting discussion potentially (I suppose it depends whether or not we all agree! If we all agree it will probably die away fairly quickly)

My own personal view is that such practices are very harmful. The lowest in my eyes being so called 'psychic mediums' who exploit people's desire to hold on to their deceased loved ones for cash. I can't believe that these people aren't arrested for fraudulent practices and that even to this day it is considered a ligitimate profession. Some of these fraudsters even make big money from TV shows.

'Psychic mediums' use techniques such as 'Barum statements' - statements that apply to most people, with the illusion that they specifically apply to you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_statements and 'cold reading' - a cunning use of wording, phrasing and guess work to extract information from the client and make it seem as though you are miraculously getting this information from somewhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading. Combine this with the client's desire to believe that this person can really contact the dead and you have a very nice scam on the go.

Divination is harmful because people actually believe it and might make dangerous desisions based upon the advice given. I don't need to say alot more about why that is dangerous.

I think that in actual fact some of these techniques etc are interesting and could provide a good show, but I think it is wrong to dupe the customer into thinking that something supernatural is occuring, especially since some of these people actually take it very seriously.

The reason I think these kinds of practices are harmful, and not just quirky is because they often provide advice to the client. A psychic medium gathers vague information in a few moments from the client and then proceeds to tell them that they should pursue their love of painting over their steady career, or that they should leave their partner. This is ridiculous! They don't even know the person, they are just going from vague things that they have managed to work out. People are willing to believe it, and base decisions upon it, to me that is insane - and these people really need to learn to question these things. And if they want advice ask someone who knows them, or a professional councilor!

So there's my view, such superstitious practices are fraudulent and harmful. Do you agree? How does this relate to the Dhamma? I don't know too much about how these practices are involved with Buddhism, but personally, I certainly hope that they aren't involved at all!

So discuss away, or not

Best wishes
Laurens



Dear Laurens, first off I agree with Moggalana, and with some of the concern you express.

There IS fraud and moneymaking with dubious means, definitely, no doubt.

My own personal view is that such practices are very harmful.


"Such practices" -they can't be generalized.

Divination is harmful because people actually believe it and might make dangerous desisions based upon the advice given. I don't need to say alot more about why that is dangerous.


I am quite sure you never had a divination done for you. But actually there is even a Tibetan Buddhist Lama who does readings, and they are very accurate, as fellow Buddhists said in e sangha.

The Dalai Lama also frequently consulted the Oracle in serious questions.

Asking such a true Oracle or medium is a whole different story.

Their prices will be moderate and compassionate with the poor, even counsel for free if they see it is necessary.

I consider oracles like the I Ching and Tarot cards as very accurate in divination.

There is also little you can do to avert something you don't like to happen.

This is a creepy thing....you can somewhat modify it, if you go about it very carefully.

I'm writing this as somebody who has 25 years of experience with the I Ching. And I am a born skeptic, (but open minded I like to believe, and curious.).

I try things before I dismiss them, and mysterious things interest me the most.

The I Ching is for me the master I can consult anytime, to help me with problems. The advice is always of high ethical value, and you get a direct warning if your intentions are impure.-

I love that. It helps to purify the mind.

It takes years of practice and daily practice to come to grips with the I Ching, but it's worth it.

The answers are so precise that I ask when I am unsure which way to go.

When a lot depends on the outcome.

I have often ignored the advice, because I tried to change things around, but -hey.

Some things seem to happen to you anyways, perhaps it is your inevitable karma...`I don't know.

So, I don't really care about the fraudulent types, which no doubt exist, but I care about the ones who have siddhi powers, and I care about the advice that helps to better one's future, and as such it is not harmful, but helpful and you can always ignore it, and see what happens.

I'm not a superstitous person, I am an academic, my IQ is over 130. ;)

So don't think I am a silly chick, ok. :tongue:

Best wishes.

Annabel
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Lampang » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:08 pm

Generally I'd agree with the OP but a couple of weeks ago a teacher at the college I live at - in Northern Thailand - died in a motorbike accident aged 27. After his death, his parents went to see a fortune teller - an astonishingly popular pastime here - who did his thing and told them that their son had a destiny to die young. His parents were comforted by this. In one sense, being dead is being dead and it's bad whatever someone else says - and seeing as he died in a bike accident in his 20s, it's kind of a dumb thing to say - but at the same time if you can unburden at least a portion of your grief onto fate and let that carry away some of the pain...well, that's not such a terrible thing.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:31 pm

Annabel wrote:
I am quite sure you never had a divination done for you. But actually there is even a Tibetan Buddhist Lama who does readings, and they are very accurate, as fellow Buddhists said in e sangha.


I have not had a divination done for me, no. I wouldn't want to waste my time and money. The thing is, the way they work is that they require your belief. If you walk into a divination thinking this person has special powers to somehow know the unknowable about you and that they can predict your future, guess what? It appears that way.

I've seen divinations when the person "reading" the cards has made a massive error in their cold reading techniques, but they always manage to side step it. One particular example I saw was the medium actually thought the person was single, when in actual fact they had a boyfriend. They cunningly got around this by saying that 'I sense that your relationship is not a very good one, because for you to walk in here and me to sense that you are single must mean that something is wrong in your relationship' (BS!) Then the medium gave some phoney relationship advice about a relationship of which she knew nothing. The thing is, because the person was willing to believe that this medium was indeed in contact with spirits, she didn't even notice this massive error in the reading.

The whole way it works is that if you believe it, it appears to be true. It's self perpetuating, you go to one with an open mind, hopeful that it will work, then it appears to work, so the next one you go to really appears to work because you really believe it now, and so on.

The same is true for the mediums themselves; they don't learn it as a nifty scam, they learn the cold reading techniques etc as if they are learning to harness their "psychic ability" or in other words their natural gift for being perceptive. After these techniques seem to work well, they convince themselves that they do actually have psychic powers.

The Dalai Lama also frequently consulted the Oracle in serious questions.

Its worth noting how backwards (I mean no offense here) Tibet was before the Chinese occupation, and it still is struggling to keep up with the modern world. There probably was a time when our leaders consulted Oracles and the like, but these practices were abandoned as society advanced and reason took over. Tibet was very much a 'medievel' society and it goes without saying that it has some catching up to do. Its not a smear on the Dalai Lama himself, I respect the guy, and I understand he is doing what he has been conditioned to believe by his culture.

Also just because His Holiness consulted an Oracle does not prove anything thing to me.

Please note I'm not justifying the Chinese occupation at all here, I am very much against it.

Asking such a true Oracle or medium is a whole different story.


Please prove that there is such a person in exsistance and maybe I will go and ask them something.
Their prices will be moderate and compassionate with the poor, even counsel for free if they see it is necessary.


The Buddha prohibited doing so as wrong livelihood, they shouldn't even be doing it, let alone charging for it.

I consider oracles like the I Ching and Tarot cards as very accurate in divination.


That's probably why they appear to work.

There is also little you can do to avert something you don't like to happen.

This is a creepy thing....you can somewhat modify it, if you go about it very carefully.

I'm writing this as somebody who has 25 years of experience with the I Ching. And I am a born skeptic, (but open minded I like to believe, and curious .).

I try things before I dismiss them, and mysterious things interest me the most.


You may say you're a sceptic, but I bet you went into it with a slight desire to believe in it (otherwise I guess like me you wouldnt have bothered in the first place) - that is all it takes, belief is a powerful thing - it makes things that defy logic and rationality appear to be true. It makes you discard the things that don't fit and latch onto and distort those that do. A Christian who believes in God will percieve things the world around them that backs it up. The same is true here.

I usually like to find out if something is worth trying before I try it, I view these practices in the same way I view heroin, I can see its a waste of time and money so there is no need to try it.

The I Ching is for me the master I can consult anytime, to help me with problems. The advice is always of high ethical value, and you get a direct warning if your intentions are impure.-

I love that. It helps to purify the mind.

It takes years of practice and daily practice to come to grips with the I Ching, but it's worth it.

The answers are so precise that I ask when I am unsure which way to go.

When a lot depends on the outcome.

I have often ignored the advice, because I tried to change things around, but -hey.

Some things seem to happen to you anyways, perhaps it is your inevitable karma...`I don't know.


If these things are inevitable and there isn't a lot you can do to change the outcome, whats the point? Why not just focus on the present and worry about the future when it happens? I do not see the point in any of this, the practice of Dhamma is said to be the only antidote to suffering, why look for an antidote anywhere else? I'm sorry, but to me it just seems like a lot of time wasting and superstition.

So, I don't really care about the fraudulent types, which no doubt exist, but I care about the ones who have siddhi powers, and I care about the advice that helps to better one's future, and as such it is not harmful, but helpful and you can always ignore it, and see what happens.


A person with Siddhi powers is forbidden in the Vinaya to exploit them, anyone doing so is probably lying about their attainments and is definately contradicting the rules laid down by the Buddha, either way I wouldn't give much attention to these people.

I'm not a superstitous person, I am an academic, my IQ is over 130. ;)


I don't see that this has any bearing on the matter.

So don't think I am a silly chick, ok. :tongue:


I don't think you are silly don't worry :tongue:
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:21 pm

Lampang wrote:Generally I'd agree with the OP but a couple of weeks ago a teacher at the college I live at - in Northern Thailand - died in a motorbike accident aged 27. After his death, his parents went to see a fortune teller - an astonishingly popular pastime here - who did his thing and told them that their son had a destiny to die young. His parents were comforted by this. In one sense, being dead is being dead and it's bad whatever someone else says - and seeing as he died in a bike accident in his 20s, it's kind of a dumb thing to say - but at the same time if you can unburden at least a portion of your grief onto fate and let that carry away some of the pain...well, that's not such a terrible thing.


True. Obviously an early death is karma.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:50 pm

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

AN 4.77


An unconjecturable is according to dictionary.com is "the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof." I would say that divination is doing just that, is it not? Their readings are not arrived at by examination of evidence or proof, they are merely pulled out of thin air. Whist I understand that one can attain the devine eye:

"He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.

SN 51.20


But I believe that one who has such attainments would not wish to exploit them, as I would have thought that one who has reached such a stage in their practice would be beyond wanting to exploit them for worldly gain. And even if so, if they did want to exploit such powers, it is condemned by the Buddha:

"Lord, the Blessed One has developed the four bases of power, pursued them, handed them the reins and taken them as a basis, given them a grounding, steadied them, consolidated them, and undertaken them well. If he wanted to, he could resolve on the Himalayas, king of mountains, as gold, and it would become a mountain of gold."

[The Buddha:]
The entirety
of a mountain of gold,
of solid bullion:
even twice that
wouldn't suffice
for one person.
Knowing this,
live evenly,
in tune with the contemplative life.

When you see stress,
and from where it comes,
how can you incline
to sensual pleasures?
Knowing acquisition
to be a bond in the world,
train for
its subduing.

Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-gone knows me" — vanished right there.

SN 4.20


Incase it was unclear, the devine eye is one of the four bases of power, exploiting them for worldly gain is the way of Mara. So personally I would tend to avoid Buddhist practitioners who do so, regardless of whether or not their attainments are true - they have been seduced by Mara, or the ways of the world, whatever you want to call it and are not following the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. I know the turning the mountains into gold doesn't exactly fit the scenario, but its the same priciple, exploiting the four bases of power for worldly gain.

It's well known that a monk is not allowed to disclose their attainments, and even if a monk performing divination does not make claims of their attainments, I would say the act of performing divination is in effect making that claim anyway. Also the Buddha specifically prohibited such practices:

"Whereas some priests and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, maintain themselves by wrong livelihood, by such lowly arts as:

reading marks on the limbs [e.g., palmistry];
reading omens and signs;
interpreting celestial events [falling stars, comets];
interpreting dreams;
reading marks on the body [e.g., phrenology];
reading marks on cloth gnawed by mice;
offering fire oblations, oblations from a ladle, oblations of husks, rice powder, rice grains, ghee, and oil;
offering oblations from the mouth;
offering blood-sacrifices;
making predictions based on the fingertips;
geomancy;
laying demons in a cemetery;
placing spells on spirits;
reciting house-protection charms;
snake charming, poison-lore, scorpion-lore, rat-lore, bird-lore, crow-lore;
fortune-telling based on visions;
giving protective charms;
interpreting the calls of birds and animals —

he abstains from wrong livelihood, from lowly arts such as these.

DN 11


Personally I don't see anything that supports divination in the Pāli canon. I think the Buddha was right it proclaiming them to be 'lowly arts', they exploit people and give advice to people they do not know, based on nonsense, which can be very damaging.

Best wishes
Laurens
Last edited by Laurens on Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:55 pm

Lampang wrote:Generally I'd agree with the OP but a couple of weeks ago a teacher at the college I live at - in Northern Thailand - died in a motorbike accident aged 27. After his death, his parents went to see a fortune teller - an astonishingly popular pastime here - who did his thing and told them that their son had a destiny to die young. His parents were comforted by this. In one sense, being dead is being dead and it's bad whatever someone else says - and seeing as he died in a bike accident in his 20s, it's kind of a dumb thing to say - but at the same time if you can unburden at least a portion of your grief onto fate and let that carry away some of the pain...well, that's not such a terrible thing.


Ah yes, all very convincing, but what of the many cases where fortune tellers have wrongly predicted the future? I'm sure they are more substancial in number. If it is one's profession to make predictions about the future, it goes without saying that you might get some right. And the chances are they keep the predictions vague so the prediction can be fitted around the event after it happens.

I'm still not convinced I'm afraid. Far from it.

Laurens
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:58 pm

Annabel wrote:
Better than if there were thousands of meaningless words is one meaningful word that on hearing brings peace.


Dhammapada


Is that your response to my post? Nice quote, but not a very strong arguement.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:02 pm

Laurens wrote:
Annabel wrote:
I am quite sure you never had a divination done for you. But actually there is even a Tibetan Buddhist Lama who does readings, and they are very accurate, as fellow Buddhists said in e sangha.


I have not had a divination done for me, no. I wouldn't want to waste my time and money. The thing is, the way they work is that they require your belief. If you walk into a divination thinking this person has special powers to somehow know the unknowable about you and that they can predict your future, guess what? It appears that way.

I've seen divinations when the person "reading" the cards has made a massive error in their cold reading techniques, but they always manage to side step it. One particular example I saw was the medium actually thought the person was single, when in actual fact they had a boyfriend. They cunningly got around this by saying that 'I sense that your relationship is not a very good one, because for you to walk in here and me to sense that you are single must mean that something is wrong in your relationship' (BS!) Then the medium gave some phoney relationship advice about a relationship of which she knew nothing. The thing is, because the person was willing to believe that this medium was indeed in contact with spirits, she didn't even notice this massive error in the reading.

The whole way it works is that if you believe it, it appears to be true. It's self perpetuating, you go to one with an open mind, hopeful that it will work, then it appears to work, so the next one you go to really appears to work because you really believe it now, and so on.

The same is true for the mediums themselves; they don't learn it as a nifty scam, they learn the cold reading techniques etc as if they are learning to harness their "psychic ability" or in other words their natural gift for being perceptive. After these techniques seem to work well, they convince themselves that they do actually have psychic powers.

The Dalai Lama also frequently consulted the Oracle in serious questions.

Its worth noting how backwards (I mean no offense here) Tibet was before the Chinese occupation, and it still is struggling to keep up with the modern world. There probably was a time when our leaders consulted Oracles and the like, but these practices were abandoned as society advanced and reason took over. Tibet was very much a 'medievel' society and it goes without saying that it has some catching up to do. Its not a smear on the Dalai Lama himself, I respect the guy, and I understand he is doing what he has been conditioned to believe by his culture.

Also just because His Holiness consulted an Oracle does not prove anything thing to me.

Please note I'm not justifying the Chinese occupation at all here, I am very much against it.

Asking such a true Oracle or medium is a whole different story.


Please prove that there is such a person in exsistance and maybe I will go and ask them something.
Their prices will be moderate and compassionate with the poor, even counsel for free if they see it is necessary.


The Buddha prohibited doing so as wrong livelihood, they shouldn't even be doing it, let alone charging for it.

I consider oracles like the I Ching and Tarot cards as very accurate in divination.


That's probably why they appear to work.

There is also little you can do to avert something you don't like to happen.

This is a creepy thing....you can somewhat modify it, if you go about it very carefully.

I'm writing this as somebody who has 25 years of experience with the I Ching. And I am a born skeptic, (but open minded I like to believe, and curious .).

I try things before I dismiss them, and mysterious things interest me the most.


You may say you're a sceptic, but I bet you went into it with a slight desire to believe in it (otherwise I guess like me you wouldnt have bothered in the first place) - that is all it takes, belief is a powerful thing - it makes things that defy logic and rationality appear to be true. It makes you discard the things that don't fit and latch onto and distort those that do. A Christian who believes in God will percieve things the world around them that backs it up. The same is true here.

I usually like to find out if something is worth trying before I try it, I view these practices in the same way I view heroin, I can see its a waste of time and money so there is no need to try it.

The I Ching is for me the master I can consult anytime, to help me with problems. The advice is always of high ethical value, and you get a direct warning if your intentions are impure.-

I love that. It helps to purify the mind.

It takes years of practice and daily practice to come to grips with the I Ching, but it's worth it.

The answers are so precise that I ask when I am unsure which way to go.

When a lot depends on the outcome.

I have often ignored the advice, because I tried to change things around, but -hey.

Some things seem to happen to you anyways, perhaps it is your inevitable karma...`I don't know.


If these things are inevitable and there isn't a lot you can do to change the outcome, whats the point? Why not just focus on the present and worry about the future when it happens? I do not see the point in any of this, the practice of Dhamma is said to be the only antidote to suffering, why look for an antidote anywhere else? I'm sorry, but to me it just seems like a lot of time wasting and superstition.

So, I don't really care about the fraudulent types, which no doubt exist, but I care about the ones who have siddhi powers, and I care about the advice that helps to better one's future, and as such it is not harmful, but helpful and you can always ignore it, and see what happens.


A person with Siddhi powers is forbidden in the Vinaya to exploit them, anyone doing so is probably lying about their attainments and is definately contradicting the rules laid down by the Buddha, either way I wouldn't give much attention to these people.

I'm not a superstitious person, I am an academic, my IQ is over 130. ;)


I don't see that this has any bearing on the matter.

So don't think I am a silly chick, ok. :tongue:


I don't think you are silly don't worry :tongue:



Thank you. :namaste:

I don't see that this has any bearing on the matter.


It's easier to sell bogus to uneducated and unintelligent people.
If you walk into a divination thinking this person has special powers to somehow know the unknowable about you and that they can predict your future, guess what? It appears that way.


Well, I can only speak for myself.

I can go into things without bias and expectation, my mind is blank.

Can you? :smile:

I've seen divinations when the person "reading" the cards has made a massive error in their cold reading techniques, but they always manage to side step it.


On TV? ;)

Its worth noting how backwards (I mean no offense here) Tibet was before the Chinese occupation, and it still is struggling to keep up with the modern world.


Sorry, Laurens, likewise no offence intended, but to say that Tibet was backwards is indeed offensive, and it is also a Zero point, because not everything that is modern is automatically good.

Buddhism is also very old, but that doesn't mean it is backwards and struggling to keep up with the modern world, or perhaps we Buddhists should keep up with the modern world and drink alcohol like the rest of the modern world?

Mind you, Islam is not a modern world either.

And they also don't drink, like Buddhists. . .

So "modern world" is not really a means of referance.

You may say you're a sceptic, but I bet you went into it with a slight desire to believe in it (otherwise I guess like me you wouldn't have bothered in the first place)


I already said what my reason for investigating this was curiosity.

If intentions are pure, selfless, the fog parts anyhow.

The same is true for the mediums themselves; they don't learn it as a nifty scam, they learn the cold reading techniques etc as if they are learning to harness their "psychic ability" or in other words their natural gift for being perceptive. After these techniques seem to work well, they convince themselves that they do actually have psychic powers.


That is a generalization.

I usually like to find out if something is worth trying before I try it, I view these practices in the same way I view heroin, I can see its a waste of time and money so there is no need to try it


I knew heroine would come up... :tongue:

While feeling the same way about it as you, the comparison isn't very lucky.

One dance with sister Heroine, -and you walk out addicted.

Not so with a divination.

Please prove that there is such a person in exsistance and maybe I will go and ask them something.


It's the farthest thinghs from my mind to try and prove anything.

The Oracle of Tibet is/was such a person. Also perhaps this Tibetan master.

If you want to consult the I Ching, I can help you. You can do it yourself then.

The Buddha prohibited doing so as wrong livelihood, they shouldn't even be doing it, let alone charging for it.


For monks, as far as I know.

I consider oracles like the I Ching and Tarot cards as very accurate in divination.


That's probably why they appear to work.


No. But how can I show you "Zen" when your cup is full....? :smile:

I just shared what I know, but nothing replaces first hand experience.
I also think I'm done.

I agree with you that a lot of what you see on TV is complete bogus.

The true masters ...you won't find there. . :anjali:
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:13 am

Sorry, Laurens, likewise no offence intended, but to say that Tibet was backwards is indeed offensive, and it is also a Zero point, because not everything that is modern is automatically good.


Not everything that is modern is automatically good, no, but not everything that is modern is automatically bad either. Its worth noting that just because Tibet is a Buddhist country does not mean that it was a blissful land prior to the Chinese occupation, from what I understand there was slavery in Tibet, there was mutilations, limbs amputated, eye gouging, capital punnishment to name but a few things - modernisation on these fronts is a good thing, no?

Perhaps backwards was the wrong word to use, but from what I understand Tibet was not a quiet, happy place where no one had ever seen an aeroplane - for some people it was a living hell.

Now this does not justify the Chinese presence there, but it simply isn't realistic to think that when they arrived they destroyed a perfect society, and to their credit they have improved it in some ways, but sadly they are also a horribly oppressive presence.

Buddhism is also very old, but that doesn't mean it is backwards and struggling to keep up with the modern world, or perhaps we Buddhists should keep up with the modern world and drink alcohol like the rest of the modern world?


I'm not saying Buddhism is backwards, but many of the cultural aspects that have become intwined with Buddhism are. Alcohol consumption isn't a modern thing at all, it was around at the time of the Buddha too, hence the 5th precept, divination was around too, hence the fact that the Buddha condemned such practices.

Mind you, Islam is not a modern world either.

And they also don't drink, like Buddhists. . .

So "modern world" is not really a means of referance.


Modern society is not all good, granted, but it certainly has its benefits. Modern skepticism is healthy and in many ways Buddhism is up to date with that, saying that we should arrive at the truth through our own reasoning. The Dhamma is not out of date at all, but alot of the culture surrounding it is! Magic amulets and what-have-you, placing our faith in this kind of stuff is not reasonible and it can be dangerous.

Ajahn Brahm tells of a Thai general who spent a ridiculous amount of money on a 'bullet-proof' amulet, one day after getting drunk with his fellow soldiers he ordered one of them to shoot him, because he was so confident of this amulet, and he died. That says it all really.

I already said what my reason for investigating this was curiosity.

If intentions are pure, selfless, the fog parts anyhow.


Curious that it might work, thats still enough for it to appear to work.
That is a generalization.

Yes, I apologise some mediums probably do know that they are participating in fraudulent activities.

I knew heroine would come up... :tongue:

While feeling the same way about it as you, the comparison isn't very lucky.

One dance with sister Heroine, -and you walk out addicted.

Not so with a divination.


But still, I see it as a waste of time and money, so I wouldn't even bother going once.

It's the farthest thinghs from my mind to try and prove anything.

The Oracle of Tibet is/was such a person. Also perhaps this Tibetan master.

If you want to consult the I Ching, I can help you. You can do it yourself then.


Ok well you have to bear in mind that you are talking to someone who frowns upon such practices, why does the I Ching work, whats the science? Why does divination work? I want hard facts, before I part with any cash.
No. But how can I show you "Zen" when your cup is full....? :smile:


I don't want you to show me Zen, and to me it doesn't seem like your cup is empty either, just filled with a different liquid :tongue:

I just shared what I know, but nothing replaces first hand experience.
I also think I'm done.


First hand experience isn't always the best thing to go by though, I've experienced things in the past that at the time lead me to believe something false and at the time you could not convince me otherwise. I have a friend who swears that voices talk to him through the television (yes he is being looked after) - its clear that what we experience doesn't prove anything.

Personally I like to stay on the rational side of the fence, it feels saner here. Each to their own though.

I agree with you that a lot of what you see on TV is complete bogus.

The true masters ...you won't find there. . :anjali:


I get that point, but I feel that true masters should be teaching Dhamma, not dabbling in such things - what does it achieve? Surely a true master would abandon all worldly things and teach only that which leads to the end of suffering. The Buddha never performed divination for anyone, most likely because it doesn't lead to the end of suffering.

I stand by my point that I feel such practices are un-Buddhist, harmful and if anything else, a waste of time.

Best wishes
Laurens
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby poto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:55 am

I just want to drop my 2 cents on this.

Annabel wrote:It's easier to sell bogus to uneducated and unintelligent people.


Not true. Intelligent and educated people fall victim to scams and buy bogus all the time. Sometimes it's actually easier to 'sell bogus' to smart people because they think they are too smart to be fooled. Many a con-man throughout history has relied on that.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Lampang » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:41 am

Ah yes, all very convincing, but what of the many cases where fortune tellers have wrongly predicted the future? I'm sure they are more substancial in number. If it is one's profession to make predictions about the future, it goes without saying that you might get some right. And the chances are they keep the predictions vague so the prediction can be fitted around the event after it happens.

I'm still not convinced I'm afraid. Far from it.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. It was a retrospective prediction so couldn't be anything but true. Clearly fortune tellers are in the business of producing facts about the future and to the extent that they are they can be criticized for making bad predictions but this isn't - by a long way - a complete description of their role; there's a very significant social side to their activities - in my example helping grieving parents cope with the loss of a child. Even if you think the former aspect is wholly ungrounded - and I tend to think it is - you have to be careful that you don't lose valuable social roles by a global criticism of fortune tellers - or whoever else it may be.

Not true. Intelligent and educated people fall victim to scams and buy bogus all the time. Sometimes it's actually easier to 'sell bogus' to smart people because they think they are too smart to be fooled. Many a con-man throughout history has relied on that.

Amen to that.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am

Laurens wrote:
Sorry, Laurens, likewise no offence intended, but to say that Tibet was backwards is indeed offensive, and it is also a Zero point, because not everything that is modern is automatically good.


Not everything that is modern is automatically good, no, but not everything that is modern is automatically bad either. Its worth noting that just because Tibet is a Buddhist country does not mean that it was a blissful land prior to the Chinese occupation, from what I understand there was slavery in Tibet, there was mutilations, limbs amputated, eye gouging, capital punnishment to name but a few things - modernisation on these fronts is a good thing, no?

Perhaps backwards was the wrong word to use, but from what I understand Tibet was not a quiet, happy place where no one had ever seen an aeroplane - for some people it was a living hell.

Now this does not justify the Chinese presence there, but it simply isn't realistic to think that when they arrived they destroyed a perfect society, and to their credit they have improved it in some ways, but sadly they are also a horribly oppressive presence.

Buddhism is also very old, but that doesn't mean it is backwards and struggling to keep up with the modern world, or perhaps we Buddhists should keep up with the modern world and drink alcohol like the rest of the modern world?


I'm not saying Buddhism is backwards, but many of the cultural aspects that have become intwined with Buddhism are. Alcohol consumption isn't a modern thing at all, it was around at the time of the Buddha too, hence the 5th precept, divination was around too, hence the fact that the Buddha condemned such practices.

Mind you, Islam is not a modern world either.

And they also don't drink, like Buddhists. . .

So "modern world" is not really a means of referance.


Modern society is not all good, granted, but it certainly has its benefits. Modern skepticism is healthy and in many ways Buddhism is up to date with that, saying that we should arrive at the truth through our own reasoning. The Dhamma is not out of date at all, but alot of the culture surrounding it is! Magic amulets and what-have-you, placing our faith in this kind of stuff is not reasonible and it can be dangerous.

Ajahn Brahm tells of a Thai general who spent a ridiculous amount of money on a 'bullet-proof' amulet, one day after getting drunk with his fellow soldiers he ordered one of them to shoot him, because he was so confident of this amulet, and he died. That says it all really.

I already said what my reason for investigating this was curiosity.

If intentions are pure, selfless, the fog parts anyhow.


Curious that it might work, thats still enough for it to appear to work.

That is a generalization.

Yes, I apologise some mediums probably do know that they are participating in fraudulent activities.

I knew heroine would come up... :tongue:

While feeling the same way about it as you, the comparison isn't very lucky.

One dance with sister Heroine, -and you walk out addicted.

Not so with a divination.


But still, I see it as a waste of time and money, so I wouldn't even bother going once.

It's the farthest thinghs from my mind to try and prove anything.

The Oracle of Tibet is/was such a person. Also perhaps this Tibetan master.

If you want to consult the I Ching, I can help you. You can do it yourself then.


Ok well you have to bear in mind that you are talking to someone who frowns upon such practices, why does the I Ching work, whats the science? Why does divination work? I want hard facts, before I part with any cash.
No. But how can I show you "Zen" when your cup is full....? :smile:


I don't want you to show me Zen, and to me it doesn't seem like your cup is empty either, just filled with a different liquid :tongue:

I just shared what I know, but nothing replaces first hand experience.
I also think I'm done.


First hand experience isn't always the best thing to go by though, I've experienced things in the past that at the time lead me to believe something false and at the time you could not convince me otherwise. I have a friend who swears that voices talk to him through the television (yes he is being looked after) - its clear that what we experience doesn't prove anything.

Personally I like to stay on the rational side of the fence, it feels saner here. Each to their own though.

I agree with you that a lot of what you see on TV is complete bogus.

The true masters ...you won't find there. . :anjali:


I get that point, but I feel that true masters should be teaching Dhamma, not dabbling in such things - what does it achieve? Surely a true master would abandon all worldly things and teach only that which leads to the end of suffering. The Buddha never performed divination for anyone, most likely because it doesn't lead to the end of suffering.

I stand by my point that I feel such practices are un-Buddhist, harmful and if anything else, a waste of time.

Best wishes
Laurens



Laurens. :smile:

You started a topic, and asked people's opinions.

I shared my first hand experience, and I could say a lot more about it, but only to somebody who is genuinely willing to learn more, which I don't think you are. No offence intended. The funny thing about it is, that you really have no idea about the depth of serious divination. (I share your concern about the frauds.)

Which is on the one side a pity, and on the other side I couldn't care less. Your life is your life, and I know what I know. End of story. Time to drink tea and have cookies... :popcorn:

So, that said, we can continue to disagree, or I stop replying to this topic after this last post.

Who knows.
Laurens wrote:The Dhamma is not out of date at all, but alot of the culture surrounding it is! Magic amulets and what-have-you, placing our faith in this kind of stuff is not reasonible and it can be dangerous. Ajahn Brahm tells of a Thai general who spent a ridiculous amount of money on a 'bullet-proof' amulet, one day after getting drunk with his fellow soldiers he ordered one of them to shoot him, because he was so confident of this amulet, and he died. That says it all really.


Look, a knife with a sharp blade can kill, and it can save a life, in the hands of a surgeon.

So, can we now argue that knives are evil or good? No. All we can say is, that the effect depends on the one who uses it.

I once treated a nun in my practice. She was suffering from insomnia, due to a mourning phase.

I knew what would help her, and asked her if she would be willing to wear a certain talisman in a certain material.

After she heard that it would be in the shape of a cross, she agreed.

She started wearing it, with a lot of doubt, but her sleep returned, and with it her optimism and strenght. She was reminded of how we have to accept what is, (for her God's will) and was able to let go of that person.

There are always 2 sides to each coin, Laurens, and a Talisman can be recommended and worn wisely and foolishly.

Curious that it might work, thats still enough for it to appear to work.


No. Curious, if. I've discarded a few practices that will not work reliably. I kept those of reliability.

Ok well you have to bear in mind that you are talking to someone who frowns upon such practices, why does the I Ching work, whats the science? Why does divination work? I want hard facts, before I part with any cash.


My advice doesn't cost a dime, only time.

This is the first condition.

The second is, to read this part of the I Ching carefully, and if necessary, more than once.

Then you could think about if you bring the mind that is necessary. (I don't think so...) ;)

Hexagram 4. (The I Ching is also called the Book of Changes, and is one of the greatest ancient wisdom books we have. Recommendable to read without any divination intended, just for the wisdom. )



In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.


I am not pushing you, I have no interest, Laurens.

We can leave it at that. Take your time.

I am inundated with work anyways.

Best wishes to you. :hug:

Annabel
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Laurens » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:09 pm

Annabel wrote:
Laurens. :smile:

You started a topic, and asked people's opinions.


Hello, :smile:

I did start a topic, I wanted to develop some form of discussion, I hope you don't think I am having a go at you or anything, I'm just arguing with you :tongue: this is the Dhammic free for all after all!

I shared my first hand experience, and I could say a lot more about it, but only to somebody who is genuinely willing to learn more, which I don't think you are. No offence intended. The funny thing about it is, that you really have no idea about the depth of serious divination. (I share your concern about the frauds.)


My experience and what I have learned has led me to the conclusion that theres is no such thing as serious divination, what you have learned and experienced has led you to believe something different. Fair enough.

Which is on the one side a pity, and on the other side I couldn't care less. Your life is your life, and I know what I know. End of story. Time to drink tea and have cookies... :popcorn:


The same applies to you, I could continue to argue against your views, but yeah its probably a waste of our time. I'm afraid I won't be exploring any of the things you have spoken about, I would rather spend my time meditating... Or drinking tea and eating cookies.

So, that said, we can continue to disagree, or I stop replying to this topic after this last post.

Who knows.


I would like your input in this topic, but in doing so you have to expect that your views might be argued against. If you don't want to stay here thats fine.

I once treated a nun in my practice. She was suffering from insomnia, due to a mourning phase.

I knew what would help her, and asked her if she would be willing to wear a certain talisman in a certain material.

After she heard that it would be in the shape of a cross, she agreed.

She started wearing it, with a lot of doubt, but her sleep returned, and with it her optimism and strenght. She was reminded of how we have to accept what is, (for her God's will) and was able to let go of that person.

There are always 2 sides to each coin, Laurens, and a Talisman can be recommended and worn wisely and foolishly.


But here again I can see that it was belief at work. The cross was essentially a placebo, the only difference being that she didn't swallow the thing (one would hope she didn't anyway!)

I'm sorry again we have to agree to differ here, if I have insomnia I'll go to someone who knows what they're doing. I have had periods of insomnia infact, and I solved these by going to sleep and waking up at a set time each day regardless of whether or not I slept, it worked a treat. No superstitious objects required.

No. Curious, if. I've discarded a few practices that will not work reliably. I kept those of reliability.


My point is though your curiousity must have been leaning upon the side of 'it might work' or else you wouldn't have bothered going. I am curious about these things only that my curiosity has led me to read about how they really work, and I've abandoned all notion that they do work in a supernatural way.

My advice doesn't cost a dime, only time.

This is the first condition.

The second is, to read this part of the I Ching carefully, and if necessary, more than once.

Then you could think about if you bring the mind that is necessary. (I don't think so...) ;)

Hexagram 4. (The I Ching is also called the Book of Changes, and is one of the greatest ancient wisdom books we have. Recommendable to read without any divination intended, just for the wisdom. )



In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.


I am not pushing you, I have no interest, Laurens.

We can leave it at that. Take your time.

I am inundated with work anyways.

Best wishes to you. :hug:

Annabel


Thanks for the quote, but as I say, I'm generally more interested in the Buddha's path for the ending of suffering, and not tittering about along the way, not to mention my skepticism. The Buddha's teachings are enough for me.

Best Wishes
Laurens
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby seanpdx » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:44 pm

Annabel wrote:
Laurens wrote:I usually like to find out if something is worth trying before I try it, I view these practices in the same way I view heroin, I can see its a waste of time and money so there is no need to try it


I knew heroine would come up... :tongue:

While feeling the same way about it as you, the comparison isn't very lucky.

One dance with sister Heroine, -and you walk out addicted.

Not so with a divination.


Slightly off-topic, but big pet peeve. This is just ridiculously false. Opiate-naive individuals do not become addicted to heroin after a single administration. Just more quackery from people who don't know what they're talking about, and know nothing of how morphine works.
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:25 pm

Laurens wrote:
Annabel wrote:
Laurens. :smile:

You started a topic, and asked people's opinions.


Hello, :smile:

I did start a topic, I wanted to develop some form of discussion, I hope you don't think I am having a go at you or anything, I'm just arguing with you :tongue: this is the Dhammic free for all after all!

I shared my first hand experience, and I could say a lot more about it, but only to somebody who is genuinely willing to learn more, which I don't think you are. No offence intended. The funny thing about it is, that you really have no idea about the depth of serious divination. (I share your concern about the frauds.)


My experience and what I have learned has led me to the conclusion that theres is no such thing as serious divination, what you have learned and experienced has led you to believe something different. Fair enough.

Which is on the one side a pity, and on the other side I couldn't care less. Your life is your life, and I know what I know. End of story. Time to drink tea and have cookies... :popcorn:


The same applies to you, I could continue to argue against your views, but yeah its probably a waste of our time. I'm afraid I won't be exploring any of the things you have spoken about, I would rather spend my time meditating... Or drinking tea and eating cookies.

So, that said, we can continue to disagree, or I stop replying to this topic after this last post.

Who knows.


I would like your input in this topic, but in doing so you have to expect that your views might be argued against. If you don't want to stay here thats fine.

I once treated a nun in my practice. She was suffering from insomnia, due to a mourning phase.

I knew what would help her, and asked her if she would be willing to wear a certain talisman in a certain material.

After she heard that it would be in the shape of a cross, she agreed.

She started wearing it, with a lot of doubt, but her sleep returned, and with it her optimism and strenght. She was reminded of how we have to accept what is, (for her God's will) and was able to let go of that person.

There are always 2 sides to each coin, Laurens, and a Talisman can be recommended and worn wisely and foolishly.


But here again I can see that it was belief at work. The cross was essentially a placebo, the only difference being that she didn't swallow the thing (one would hope she didn't anyway!)

I'm sorry again we have to agree to differ here, if I have insomnia I'll go to someone who knows what they're doing. I have had periods of insomnia infact, and I solved these by going to sleep and waking up at a set time each day regardless of whether or not I slept, it worked a treat. No superstitious objects required.

No. Curious, if. I've discarded a few practices that will not work reliably. I kept those of reliability.


My point is though your curiousity must have been leaning upon the side of 'it might work' or else you wouldn't have bothered going. I am curious about these things only that my curiosity has led me to read about how they really work, and I've abandoned all notion that they do work in a supernatural way.

My advice doesn't cost a dime, only time.

This is the first condition.

The second is, to read this part of the I Ching carefully, and if necessary, more than once.

Then you could think about if you bring the mind that is necessary. (I don't think so...) ;)

Hexagram 4. (The I Ching is also called the Book of Changes, and is one of the greatest ancient wisdom books we have. Recommendable to read without any divination intended, just for the wisdom. )



In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil.


I am not pushing you, I have no interest, Laurens.

We can leave it at that. Take your time.

I am inundated with work anyways.

Best wishes to you. :hug:

Annabel


Thanks for the quote, but as I say, I'm generally more interested in the Buddha's path for the ending of suffering, and not tittering about along the way, not to mention my skepticism. The Buddha's teachings are enough for me.

Best Wishes
Laurens


if I have insomnia I'll go to someone who knows what they're doing.


Honeypie, :hug: I know what I am doing too. I have a state exam for alternative healing. :tongue:

The same applies to you, I could continue to argue against your views,


Well, I think arguing AGAINST somebodies views is useless and I disengage, usually. unless I have one of my benighted moments, -maybe right now? :jumping:

It is much better to work together, to try to work at something together, don't you think? :smile:

The cross was essentially a placebo, the only difference being that she didn't swallow the thing (one would hope she didn't anyway!)
I have had periods of insomnia infact, and I solved these by going to sleep and waking up at a set time each day regardless of whether or not I slept, it worked a treat. No superstitious objects required.


Actually, the cross was just the form, the vehicle for something else. The working substance was something else.

My point is though your curiousity must have been leaning upon the side of 'it might work' or else you wouldn't have bothered going. I am curious about these things only that my curiosity has led me to read about how they really work, and I've abandoned all notion that they do work in a supernatural way.


I see.

I would like to speak with Shakespeare.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

William Shakespeare, "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5

Which means, that not everything can be explained by "science". Or how would science explain the siddhi powers Moggalana talked about?

How would it explain rebirth?

For modern science e rebirth is "superstition". Oh, merrily we go round.... :jumping:
I can see that it was belief at work


We know, that each person has self healing powers. We call that the 'inner physician'. If we succeed in activating those self-healing powers, no matter how, a person gets well. And we have a saying that goes like:

The one who heals is right.
Jesus also once said to an ill man: Your belief healed you.

What's wrong with that?

Don't we all believe in Buddha who told us that rebirth is...?

We, have no means of knowing, unless we see past lives.

So we believe. Or don't.

I'm generally more interested in the Buddha's path for the ending of suffering,


Me too. I would still like to learn how to drive a car from someone else. :D
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Re: Psychic mediums, divination, telepathy etc

Postby Annapurna » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:46 pm

seanpdx wrote:
Annabel wrote:
Laurens wrote:I usually like to find out if something is worth trying before I try it, I view these practices in the same way I view heroin, I can see its a waste of time and money so there is no need to try it


I knew heroine would come up... :tongue:

While feeling the same way about it as you, the comparison isn't very lucky.

One dance with sister Heroine, -and you walk out addicted.

Not so with a divination.


Slightly off-topic, but big pet peeve. This is just ridiculously false. Opiate-naive individuals do not become addicted to heroin after a single administration. Just more quackery from people who don't know what they're talking about, and know nothing of how morphine works.


I knew somebody would find it necessary to point out that a single dose mustn't get you on the hook, but it's a bit tiring to always mention everything there is to know about it. .

The point is, heroine is a very addictive drug with extreme difficulties to get unhooked.

Not so divination. :tongue:

Just more quackery from people who don't know what they're talking about, and know nothing of how morphine works.


Not really.

When you stop heroine your brain was so used to it that it makes you physically ill. But this goes along with any opiates(Oxycodone, oxycontin, hydrocodone, morphine, hydromorphone, codeine, buprenorphine, etc..)

The reason is it addictive (mentally and physically) is because your brain produces a chemical called dopamine. When you use heroin, after a short amount of time, your brain STOPS producing dopamine the way it should. The more heroin you take into your body, the less dopamine your brain makes. Because dopamine is an opioid, like heroin, your brain thinks, "Hey why do i need to make it? I'm getting it from another source", and it stops making it. WITHOUT THIS CHEMICAL, you CANNOT function. Look up the withdrawal symptoms! Runny nose, watery eyes, burning eyes, burning skin, severe vomiting, severe SEVERE insomnia, severe diarrhea, hot flashes, extreme sweating, chills, nausea, the list goes on and on but it'll stop. It's horrible, and the withdrawals go on for at least a week, at most 6 weeks usually, when you kick. Once you get your "next shot" or "next fix", they instantly go away and you are instantly well.

It is also mentally addictive because it produces euphoria. Yes, that is why they get addicted MENTALLY, first. But then when it gets you PHYSICALLY addicted (strung out), you don't get that feeling anymore, you just get well, instead of high. You get mentally addicted usually because the high is so intense and "good", but then once it gets you physically, you're screwed. Also, when you use for long periods of time (months), you shoot up so many times a day, you get very mentally addicted to tying off, finding a vein and shooting up.

:focus:
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